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Old 19-12-2008, 07:37   #61
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Tempest245 - some portapotties are MSD and are installed devices!

Your quote that portapotties are not installed devices is not totally correct. See the link re mounted MSD units - Porta Potti 465 MSD

My 465 MSD is permanently mounted, and gives minimum of 63 flushes before it needs a pumpout. That's a heck of a lot more flushes than you get with a 15 gal. holding tank.
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Old 19-12-2008, 07:41   #62
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I also don't buy in that human feces is any worse than shark, whale or dolphin feces. And there are a heck of a lot of fish pooping in the water.

You don't?? IF humans ate only what fishes do, yea. BUT we don't. The history of human deseases caused by waste prior to proper handling of said is well documented.

everyone should have a holding tank. Every flsuh should there. It needs a two way exit. One is overboard, the other pump out. No pump out, go off shore and discharge. I sure as hell don't want human waste where I'm anchored no matter how much it's ground up.
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Old 19-12-2008, 12:06   #63
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Poop in The water

Man Bruce you are so correct! At the risk of sounding sanctimonious I want to preface my remarks by saying that I have spent the last 27+ years as a water and wastewater treatment professional. A highlight for me was going to The Peoples Republic of China this year to consult to the Government on issues with water treatment, (Talk about Problems).
My specific job requirements are to stay current on the latest issues, problems and solutions around the world so as to best be able to advise clients with their issues.

I don't want to bore people with a lot of data[C1][C2], but a little background is required. In the United States like most industrialized nations our track record regarding all manner of pollution was abysmal. If it wasn't for congressional "Tree Huggers" enacting the clean water act of 1977, GE in the name of corporate greed would be still dumping PCB's into the Hudson River. Up until this time most municipalities where dumping their raw, untreated sewerage directly into the waterways. At the time "The Clean Water Act" addressed approximately 200 known pollutants in our waters. 30 years later there are over 2000 known pollutants in our water. At the turn of the century 1 in a hundred people would have cancer in their lifetime, today that statistic is 1 in 3, (Ever wonder why?. The main thrust of "The Clean Water Act" was that all municipalities and industrial facilities had to start cleaning up their discharge by adhering to very specific criteria as to what they could and couldn't put into the water. All this was theoretically enforced by the guys at EPA and DEC. The result for violating discharge permits could and should be very severe. The result of all this is in the US we have made some real progress in cleaning up our waterways. The Hudson River during the 60's was a brown muddy "National Disgrace". Today the stripper stocks have returned and on a sunny day the River actually looks blue.

o Now the bad news. Of the original 200 hundred known chemicals addressed by the "Clean Water Act" we are only doing a fair job of removing these from our waterways. There hasn't been an upgrade to the clean water act since written 30 years ago. The financial pressures that our cities are under have in many cases halted further progress in water treatment. Of great concern is the issue of "Combined sewer overflow" that allows millions of gallons of untreated waste to enter streams and waterways anytime there is a significant rain event. Now back to the 2000 chemicals that through improved methods of testing we are able to identify and that we are doing absolutely nothing about and you start to get the picture. At the end of the day on a worldwide basis the picture is pretty bleak: waterwebster.com
Water is a scarce and precious resource that people, generally from places where it is abundant use and abuse. 70 percent of the worlds "Available" fresh water is in North America. What is the rest of the world going to do as the population continues to explode, (Water wars).

The theory that we can continue to dump our sewerage and garbage into the water and the tides and currents are magically going to take care of it is called "Dilution" and has been shown very clearly to be bunk. Jacque Cousteau in the sixties was trying to make the world aware of the oil pollution amongst other issues in the deep oceans. The idea that just because some area of the world (Caribbean) has no regulations or pump out stations its ok to dump "My Crap" is irresponsible, some would argue criminal. The argument that because the other entire guy’s are doing it is just weak one. Just like the millions of plastic water bottles ending up in the landfills everyday the effects are cumulative. The number one stressor of the world’s environment is over population. The boating lifestyle as a whole has a very significant imprint on the environment. Why do you think California is trying to do away with toxic bottom paints? Where does all that shrink wrap plastic go times the thousands of marinas when done? How about all the toxic paints and chemicals being utilized near the water? And on and on and on. The arguments being perpetuated by self-absorbed arrogant corporations and people who driven by greed and self absorbed pursuit of pleasure at the expense of the rest of the world is no longer valid. I am amazed that individuals who won’t hesitate about adding a lot of useless, expensive junk to make their boats like a house complain about having to put in a holding tank system appropriate to the size of the cruising they intend to do?
On a final note I would like to say that if when I take my son fishing I don’t want to catch fish with two heads or step over peoples garbage and that makes me a tree hugging hippie I am proud of it.
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Old 19-12-2008, 13:14   #64
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The whale pooping got me thinking.

Do they fart??

.....Middle of the Dog Watch... moonlit night.... SE 10 kts... suddenly ###### What the hell was that???????????????????


LOLOL


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Old 19-12-2008, 13:18   #65
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Jim Quibell,

Thats a nice looking toilet...\

Is it hooked up to a seacock? If not I would still call it portable, and thus subject to dicharge rules
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Old 19-12-2008, 13:25   #66
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Tempest - it's called a marine MSD.

Permanently mounted, and yes it is subject to offshore discharge rules. No - there's no seacock - doesn't need one. A seacock doesn't determine what a MSD is.
Being connected to a pump out fitting, and having a breather fitting to doghouse wall or deck make the unit an approved marine sanitation device.
There are some provinces in Canada where portapotties are illegal. Only the mounted MSD units are approved.
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Old 19-12-2008, 14:19   #67
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Originally Posted by cburger View Post
...In the United States like most industrialized nations our track record regarding all manner of pollution was abysmal. If it wasn't for congressional "Tree Huggers" enacting the clean water act of 1977, GE in the name of corporate greed would be still dumping PCB's into the Hudson River. Up until this time most municipalities where dumping their raw, untreated sewerage directly into the waterways. At the time "The Clean Water Act" addressed approximately 200 known pollutants in our waters. 30 years later there are over 2000 known pollutants in our water. At the turn of the century 1 in a hundred people would have cancer in their lifetime, today that statistic is 1 in 3, (Ever wonder why?. .. etc
I would be intrigued to know how the PCB's and other assorted 2,000 pollutants, chemicals, bottom paint, etc, etc get into your poop (well maybe can see bottom paint getting into it if one is into painting faces on ones bottom ).

Thought we were worried about just a little black water from cruising boats not the equivalent of the untreated sewage from a whole industrial city being dumped from little cruising boats.

As an aside the best understood reasons why so many more (appear to) die of cancer these days are that we are living much longer (partly because of better hygiene, I concede) and diet. In many parts of the world the commonest environmental cause of cancer cases (in your 1 in 3, which is a "selected" biased statistic as it does not apply to the world's population) is the sun, not pollutants.
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Old 19-12-2008, 15:19   #68
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Among all the diatribes and helpful and also some amusing info here there is no mention of Wag-Bags. I, personally don't like living with and smelling (good nose) my my s__, so prefer the WagBag route.

Here is a note from L&L Pardy web site on this:

Handling of human waste (black water) is becoming an ever-increasing concern for voyagers. All ports in the United States, all of the Great Lakes, several enclosed lakes and bays in Canada, and many ports in Europe have been designated "no discharge" areas. In New Zealand, the rule is no discharge of black water within 500 meters of shore. Several New Zealand marinas now have staff put seals on toilet-discharge valves upon arrival. Holding tanks are standard on most American cruising boats and many European ones, and they offer a solution in areas where there are pump-out stations. In Canadian waters, where it is legal to discharge human waste once you are beyond the "no discharge" areas, there are very few pump-out stations. Outside the Great Lakes, only a few large marinas in main centers have pump-out facilities. Pump-out stations are rare or nonexistent in most other parts of the world. Furthermore, the vast majority of human waste going into coastal waters and inland rivers does not come from boats with installed toilets, but rather from fishermen and people in small open boats, as well as kayakers and day sailors with no toilet facilities at all. (More than 99 percent of the boats registered in the United States are less than 18 feet in length and powered by outboard motors.) Most of these folks use some variation of the "bucket-and-chuck-it" system. (Even in the United States, where black-water-management laws are the most stringent, you are only required to have holding tanks if you have an installed marine head with through-hull discharge.)
Bucket-and-chuck-it may be okay in open areas, but we find it a discomforting choice in pristine anchorages or in enclosed marinas anywhere in the world. We have no installed head due to our dislike of holding tanks, so we have made an enclosure with seat and lid for a bucket and have come up with solutions that we feel work well. Offshore, we use the bucket-and-chuck-it system. Near shore or in enclosed anchorages, we use Wag Bags in the bucket. These fully biodegradable bags-familiar to dog and cat owners-contain special powder (called Pooh-Powder) that turns urine into a gel and deodorizes the waste. The special enzymes in the gel also kill bacteria and promote the breakdown of waste and bags. After using the bag (one bag can be used five or six times), we simply seal it into the separate biodegradable pouch supplied with each kit. Then it can be deposited in the trash for disposal at landfills. In Peru, where these bags are required for anyone hiking the Inca Trail, the waste product is allowed to break down in compost heaps; within four months, the compost can be used safely for gardening. They also are used for emergency waste management, such as during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when more than a million of the bags were used in the area around New Orleans. In the absence of these bags, many small boat racers use a bucket with a fitted lid and plastic-bag liners. The bags and simple bucket with toilet seats are available through West Marine and most camping outlets. A folding toilet plus Wag Bags can be purchased directly from the manufacturer, Phillips Environmental Products (tel. 1-877-520-0999, www.thepett.com).
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Old 19-12-2008, 16:32   #69
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You don't?? IF humans ate only what fishes do, yea. BUT we don't. The history of human deseases caused by waste prior to proper handling of said is well documented.

everyone should have a holding tank. Every flsuh should there. It needs a two way exit. One is overboard, the other pump out. No pump out, go off shore and discharge. I sure as hell don't want human waste where I'm anchored no matter how much it's ground up.
On one hand I agree with the fishes argument, and it is true when you are far out. The law reflects that, and the impact, full-loop, on the oceans is not far different than if the waste was treated on shore. I design water treatment plants, so I do not think I am talking out my hat. There are some differences, but if the pump-out is in a 3rd world country or small island, I could argue, I believe, that 10 miles out is better for everyone.

However, read the "The Ghost Map" (Amazon.com: The Ghost Map: The Story of London's Most Terrifying Epidemic--and How It Changed Science, Cities, and the Modern World: Steven Johnson: Books) or some other book on cholera epidemics and the like - think about the public health aspect. It is NOT acceptable to poop where people might swim or be exposed to the water. Period. Sharks do not carry human pathogens.
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Old 19-12-2008, 17:16   #70
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At the turn of the century 1 in a hundred people would have cancer in their lifetime, today that statistic is 1 in 3, (Ever wonder why?.
What a load of sewage.

I'm a molecular biologist by education.

The reason why the cancer rate is up is because the average life expectancy in the US in 1900 was all of 47 years.

I just love how tree-huggers can justify their position with inane "facts" like this.
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Old 19-12-2008, 17:25   #71
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...or some other book on cholera epidemics and the like - think about the public health aspect. It is NOT acceptable to poop where people might swim or be exposed to the water.
The natural environment of the bactera that causes cholera, vibrio cholerae, is warm coastal seawater. Its presence there is not related to pollution in any way at all - it is found in both polluted and unpolluted waters.

In perfectly clean seawater you can get cholera from eating seafoods (especially improperly cooked filter feeding shellfish). So one should always cook shellfish even from the cleanest waters. Most people only suffer mildly and recover without treatment or not knowing what it was they had.

The much more dangerous bacteria of the same family, vibrio vulnificus, which also causes similar symptoms to cholera (but does not cause cholera) is also a natural inhabitant of warm seawater and is found naturally in fin fish and shell fish. This can advance to septicaemia and when it does so about half of sufferers die. Again, it exists whether the water is polluted or not.

None of this is related to discharges from cruising boats in any way at all as both the above bacteria are natural inhabitants of coastal water, including in the USA and here in NZ, and always have been - they become more problematical when the seawater temperature is over around 17C and that is when the illnesses caused by them become more frequent (here in NZ, outbreaks are most common from shell fish taken in shallow warm estuary waters during summer - often incorrectly put down to "pollution" by lay people, but in fact due to the natural population of the bactria rapidly increasing as temperatures increase).

Can see there will be never ending repetition of false information from some trying to justify non direct discharges so I'll leave it to them to manufacture their stories and I will leave the thread. But just to make it clear, while I do not encourage dumping of anything in the sea, direct discharges of black water happens and in most cases is of no consequence unless in very crowded and low tidal flow conditions where it then adds to the nutrients in the water. The visual effects are negligible after a couple of seconds if goes through a macerator or a head that comminutes the matter as a byproduct of its pumping and valving (eg even the cheap Jabsco, being but one example).
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Old 19-12-2008, 17:38   #72
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Ex-Calif, Could be part of the reason why the harbors in your part of the world are some of the most polluted on the planet. We always here about the animals crapping in the water. The fact is that human waste carries all kinds of really bad stuff, not so much animals. And we don't need waste experts coming in and telling us how insignificant our discharge is. It doesn't matter, it is the wrong thing to do. How about if I come over and drop my sewage on your lawn. I mean, the dogs, cats and birds do so what would be the harm. The the rains will eventually dilute it, right. My justification for dumping on your lawn is no different that yours for dumping in my anchorage. I don't care what large water treatments do in major cities. I care about what I do. I also care about what you do when it affects me. If it only affects you I don't care what you do.
You are welcome to come and poo on my lawn. My lawn is the ocean, and thus I don't soak it with toxic chemicals like the landlubbers do with their lawns ( and golf courses) .In fact there are three marinas in front of me that poo regularly on my lawn , like marinas in the US where holding tanks are rarely used , and are mainly there to satisfy the paper nazis.
Studies have shown that boaters are a non problem in BC. Cruisers have been used as political scapegoats to distract attention from huge cities like Vancouver which continue to dump huge quantities of raw sewage daily.
The more we let them point the finger at scapegoats the less huge cities and landlubbers have to do. We complain about natural stuff like **** , while letting our car culture dump huge quantities of oil into the runnoff . Can't touch those tho. Cars are sacred , like white cows in India , or like golf courses for the rich to play on.
I've never owned a car, which reduces my environmental impact to a tiny fraction of that of the car culture crowd ,who wave a sanctimonius finger at me. What hippocrites.
Overpopulation is still the sacred cow which is the main cause of pollution, which no politiico has the huevos to point a finger at. I added nothing to that problem either.
There are many reasons to stay out of the US , as the 40% drop in European tourism since 911 has shown. They now come to Canada, which has seen a huge increase.
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Old 19-12-2008, 17:42   #73
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For the past 15 years, we have been one of the few cruising boats which use a holding tank for #2 at anchor and pump overboard offshore. Our holding tank holds about 6 days worth, and we usually are moving on within that time. This does not meet the legal standards in the US, but it meets my standards.

I think the thing that made my mind up was snorkling under the boat in Friday Harbor in the San Juan islands back in the 1970's, where I discovered the 'shilt' was about 6 inches thick. Not every anchorage has the same problem, but it is easy enough to use the holding tank and do your bit.
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Old 19-12-2008, 18:05   #74
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Reminds me of comments I've often heard about anchorages with "Toilet paper lining the trees." You can see that toilet paper , green in the water, half green and half white , halfway up the beach and bleached totally white hanging from the trees. It also shows up in anchorages rarely visted by yachts. You can take a bit of toilet paper and pump it thru your head, watch it sink within 5 feet of the boat, then calculate the odds of it reaching the beach 50 yards away in 50 ft unbroken lengths. It is a common algy , common in warm sheltered bays thruout the BC coast, boats or no boats . Mistaking bottom mud for **** is equally naive.
**** breaks down in a few days and quickly becomes unrecognisable from mud . You'd need hundreds of people all shitting at once for it to reach 6 inches deep.
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Old 19-12-2008, 18:55   #75
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Wow! Brent, Midland, and Streep, you guys really know your ****! Is there a Doctoral program in it somewhere? I can hardly wait to swim with you guys! ( read like Bill Murray talking to the cow tipper in "Stripes")
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