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Old 18-12-2008, 20:36   #46
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Holding tank chemicals have sterilized many bays of all life forms . When there were blue whales and far more marine life than there is today , the seas were far healthier. None of them had holding tanks. In the South Pacific you'll see fish go into a feeding frenzy to recycle what you pump out of your head. It is gone in seconds. I don't think they do the same with bleach , formaldehyde and other commonly used holding tank chemicals.In BC the crabs do the same ,and eliminate **** in two days. In Baynes sound , coliform counts go up in winter when the ducks and sea lions are in and go down in summer when the yachts are in. What happened when sea lion and duck polpulations were exponentialy higher than they are today. We humans shouldn't be so arrogant as to flatter ourselves by assuming that our concerns have made the environment a better place. US holding tank foolishness is simple to deal with. I simply don't go there.
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Old 18-12-2008, 20:43   #47
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Ex-Calif, Could be part of the reason why the harbors in your part of the world are some of the most polluted on the planet. We always here about the animals crapping in the water. The fact is that human waste carries all kinds of really bad stuff, not so much animals. And we don't need waste experts coming in and telling us how insignificant our discharge is. It doesn't matter, it is the wrong thing to do. How about if I come over and drop my sewage on your lawn. I mean, the dogs, cats and birds do so what would be the harm. The the rains will eventually dilute it, right. My justification for dumping on your lawn is no different that yours for dumping in my anchorage. I don't care what large water treatments do in major cities. I care about what I do. I also care about what you do when it affects me. If it only affects you I don't care what you do.
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Old 18-12-2008, 20:54   #48
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Lawns don't flush instantly.
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Old 18-12-2008, 20:55   #49
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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Holding tank chemicals have sterilized many bays of all life forms . When there were blue whales and far more marine life than there is today , the seas were far healthier. None of them had holding tanks. In the South Pacific you'll see fish go into a feeding frenzy to recycle what you pump out of your head. It is gone in seconds. I don't think they do the same with bleach , formaldehyde and other commonly used holding tank chemicals.In BC the crabs do the same ,and eliminate **** in two days. In Baynes sound , coliform counts go up in winter when the ducks and sea lions are in and go down in summer when the yachts are in. What happened when sea lion and duck polpulations were exponentialy higher than they are today. We humans shouldn't be so arrogant as to flatter ourselves by assuming that our concerns have made the environment a better place. US holding tank foolishness is simple to deal with. I simply don't go there.
Brent
Brent, I can't tell you how sorry I am that you won't come to the US and dump your sewage in our waters. perhaps some day we can change your mind.
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Old 18-12-2008, 21:33   #50
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Although chemically treated everyone who has ever swam in a public pool has swum in pee.
...and swum in faeces, especially if the pool has had children in it and even more especially if there have been very young children in it. Will be even worse when there is a full blown "faecal accident" as happens and will shut the pool down (once it is discovered, that is ).

I would never (and I mean NEVER) swim in a public swimming pool yet it does not worry most people.

I worked in the water and waste treatment industry many years ago (when I came out of university so a good, good many years ago ) managing design and installation of both municipal and industrial systems. Was so long ago that I would not like to talk authoratively on modern treatment methods but can say that from my perspective pollution of the sea by black water from pleasure yachts is of insignificant importance - the sea is a big place when you look at it in 3 dimensions and there are plenty of other much bigger sources of mammalian (both land and sea living - and whales do real big poos ) and nutrient bearing inflows to coastal waters, either direct to the sea or from rivers and run off, that most don't even consider or worry about.

There are, obviously, some very enclosed waters where black water may be a problem, especially if not macerated or comminuted (and many heads will comminute just from their pumping and valving actions). Given the short amount of time most boats are populated in marinas I would suspect that the greatest pollution from black water in them that does not rapidly dilute or get eaten is the cellulose fibre in toilet paper which will settle on the bottom forming a blanket if there is not enough tidal flow to disperse it.

In my view, very much an emotive rather than soundly based matter (much along the lines of my earlier post). Here there was some sort of recognition of reality versus emotion as the limits for discharging untreated sewage from boats is just at least 500m off nearest land and must be at least 5m deep (with some other limits for around marine farms) - while I think that is fine for direct discharge I think there should be a requirement that holding tanks can only be dumped at least 3 miles out at sea because they make one hell of a mess in close. I think most here just apply good sense as far as direct discharges are concerned as most anchorages are not ever crowded and have good tidal flows (except for that dirty mob up in Auckland who all cram together for 2 weeks of the year between Xmas and New Year in a few bays in the Hauraki Gulf ).
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Old 18-12-2008, 22:07   #51
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The fact is that human waste carries all kinds of really bad stuff, not so much animals.
For the bad stuff introduced by black water ie pathogens, one generally has to drink it to be affected. Furthermore you have to drink lots of the little buggers, not just one or two, in order for them to defeat ones own bodily defenses and they have to be pathogens not just coliforms. Given the dilution of the sea a direct discharge from a boat is say 1 gallon into billions and most of us don't drink sea water.

Here, and in many temperate regions, the commonest water bourne pathogen is giardia which is predominantly introduced to waterways by animals. NZ was giardia free, but while it was probably introduced by humans (dang tourists ) the greatest cause of waterway pollution with coliforms is from other mammals.

Like most people I have no great desire to drink people's poo, but neither do I drink sea water.
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Old 19-12-2008, 00:21   #52
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It doesn't matter, it is the wrong thing to do. How about if I come over and drop my sewage on your lawn. I mean, the dogs, cats and birds do so what would be the harm. The the rains will eventually dilute it, right. My justification for dumping on your lawn is no different that yours for dumping in my anchorage.
This statement is completely correct if you OWN the anchorage, Chuck. Which you dont, so it's not. However, your basic argument here that if you dumped your waste on my lawn, what would be the harm, is accurate. There would be no effect other than making me mad. Maybe the grass would grow better. It certainly wouldn't send the environment into a nose dive because you ate an asprin last night and had deadly toxics in your feces.

I have a distaste for bandwagon environment groupies who champion a cause founded on propaganda and misrepresented facts just so they can have a reason to like themselves. Despite that, hearing about 20 million gallons of sewage dumping into the ICW, causes even me concern. It seems that a dump like that would kill everything in the water from the ammonia spike alone. Yet, I have not heard of a massive die off in marine life down there. I have friends in the marine aquarium business in Florida who collect tropicals and they are doing just fine.

Mother Earth does not need to be pampered by us insignifigent humans. She could take our worst and never break stride. When New Orleans flooded did they contain it? filter it? treat it? Nope. They pumped it back out along with God only knows what. Far worse toxins than ever came out of my a$$.

Corporations do the most polluting. Let's look at a company that makes... holding tanks! How much pollution and toxins are being spewed onto the Earth so we can feel good about not crapping in the ocean?

The biscuit parade continues.
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Old 19-12-2008, 00:55   #53
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Before the Enviro-nazis collectively jump on your sewer-pipe, let me say Well Done. It takes cajones to fight the well-funded, ill-informed "Green Meanies", but I can tell you are ready for the challenge. If I hear the term "carbon-neutral" one more time, I'm gonna stick somebody's head in their composting toilet.
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Old 19-12-2008, 02:17   #54
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it always amazes me how much passion and discussion a little crap can stir up
The passion is stirred not by the subject but by the answers such as yours Chuck. Can only assume that the contributers who advocate no dumping overboard are the sheep AquaHolic refers to with little or no regard for the practicalities of offshore cruising.

All the cruisers I know, and there are many, appear to be aware of dumping in any area that's not flushed by tide/current, are considerate of people swimming nearby etc. However to my knowledge NONE of them use their holding tanks when cruising offshore because there is NOWHERE to empty them other than the very ocean we are talking about and then in concentrated form.

Come on tree-huggers, stop quoting impractical rules and bad reporting in journals and start getting real. There is an awful lot of ocean out there.
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Old 19-12-2008, 02:22   #55
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Wink Charming Topic

I'm amazed at the number of cruisers that think nothing of discharging their waste while anchored. I guess if you don't swim then you don't have to guess when it's ok to dive in. I admit I haven't seen turd slicks drift by me yet, but now I'm thinking I've just been lucky.

I could no more dump # 2 in an anchorage then hawk in my soup. I guess what makes me a hypocrite is I will piss off the rail and yes I'll cut wind in the open, also when no ones looking. But I know none of you would want to see my evacuations, macerator or no...

Lets just call it "The Golden Rule"; I don't mind if you piss off your stern because I would like to be able to do the same. Lets just not advertise. Like wise, I won't float ass chunks down your way because I'd like it if you refrain from floating yours my way.

It half sounds civilized don't you think; a nice compromise I think. When I get my next boat, I think I'll have to make sure it has a big holding tank. Three miles isn't so far.
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Old 19-12-2008, 04:39   #56
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Mother Earth does not need to be pampered by us insignifigent humans. She could take our worst and never break stride.
This line simply disgusts me. I cant believe I've read this on a cruisers forum. Next circumnavigation, try opening your eyes. As for the holding tank issue, all I advocated was installing one (designed correctly to avoid using chemicals) and using it at anchor. Pump out while offshore. Done with this thread, have fun trolling, Chris
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Old 19-12-2008, 05:20   #57
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As many of you know we are planning our trip to the US and Caribbean soon. My vessel does not have a holding tank. I have done some basic search's and not finding out alot wheather or not I can cruise with this type of Head.

Do I need a Holding tank in the USA (Saltwater)?

Do I need a Holding tank in the Bahamas or Caribbean?

Thanks for your feedback,

Todd
Back to the original questions...here's some input on the Caribbean.

Pump-out facilities are virtually non-existent in the eastern Caribbean. Nonetheless, I have heard that the US National Park Service intends to begin enforcing holding tank requirements within the USVI National Park area. Although you won't be able to pump out,a holding tank would allow you to store waste for later discharge in deep water between islands, as I think Chuck pointed out. In reality, I suspect that few do that, and many cruisers stay in an anchorage for longer than their holding tank's capacity would accomodate anyway.

In spite of the practically universal practice of overboard discharge, almost all of the anchorages down here are crystal clear and clean to the eye, because they flush efficiently. The most notable exception that I've come across is Simpson Lagoon on St. Martin/St. Maarten. It has only two small connections with the ocean, and there can be hundreds of boats anchored there. The water is greenish gray and opaque. You wouldn't want to swim in it!
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Old 19-12-2008, 06:19   #58
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I can't speak to the Islands, but in the states, the rules are pretty clear.
If you have an installed toilet you must be connected to a type 1 2 or 3 MSD.

Porta potties are not installed devices, but are subject to Discharge rules ( 3 miles )

If I read the rules correctly, you cannot discharge waste from type 1 or 2 devices ( Macerators etc. ) within the no-discharge zones. If you are in a no-discharge zone with a type 1 or 2, you must have the discharge valve ( seacock? )positively locked closed. Lakes, resevoirs etc. are automatically considered no-discharge zones.

If you have a holding tank with a Y valve, you must have the valve locked in toward the holding tank ...or directed toward the tank with the handle removed.

That said, I confess to the peeing over the side from time to time but never into the wind.
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Old 19-12-2008, 06:30   #59
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Here in Bermuda we do not have a holding tank requirement. St. Georges harbour is where scores of visiting yachts (maybe even some of you holding tank guys) anchor on the summer/winter migration down-islands. We have no marine pump-outs that I know about.
I live directly downstream of the harbour and the boat can go 2 yrs between bottom jobs, with only a small bit of slime on the bottom. Also my waterfront is like an aquarium for healthy variety of sealife. Our reef structure is often studied as one of the best in the world. Human waste is not a problem when there is an active tidal flow to help in dissipation IMHO. Polluted water,Idon't think so!!!!
On the other hand. our beautiful little whistling frogs are rapidly disappearing through pesticide land pollution.
From this, one could soon arrive at the conclusion that the only reason you need inshore regulations is because it takes up room in the ocean that the pesticide run-off, industrial chemical dumpers, medical waste disposers, asbestos dumpers, petrolium spillers,et al, need for their use.
By the way, that un-catalysed diesel, and that tender 2-stroke engine leave an oil film that lasts a lot longer than that bacon and eggs you ate 2 hrs ago.
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Old 19-12-2008, 07:08   #60
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my 40l holding tank takes up so little space here that the only time i ever notice it is when i clean around it. the electric toilet has a very good macerator which also gets used for disposing of left over food scraps.

granted the folk on the catamaran nearby have more fish under their yacht but i've got a problem with throwing food over the side in the hope that something will come along and gulp it down, and it destroys the ambience of the harbour to see their toilet paper floating by.

whilst i've never had any environmental agencies come aboard and ask to check that i do have a tank i believe that does happen regularly to vessels making a passage through most australian waters.

the holding tank, plumbing and toilet cost less than a solar panel. i get so much from the environment for free that what it cost to be environmentally friendly is negligible.

i've got an incurable disease and have had a good deal of my digestive system removed, (most of what goes in my mouth comes out my bag looking pretty much the same) so at the end of the day i physically cant put raw sewage in the water anyway, i was told by a nutritionist as i was being kicked out of hospital that i would do myself a favour by drinking a small quantity of salt water daily, that doesnt happen here, but it does happen when i'm at sea.

i've spent a lot of time exploring deserted islands and remote coastlines, its bad enough that they are infested with plastic bags and other flotsam & jetsam, seeing turds on a sparkling white (or black) beach is just so damn disappointing and distracting when you are having a pleasant sojourn on land.

people spend thousands on their yachts to get away from the crap of landlubbers, yachties who leave their crap for all to see dont deserve the beauty the planet is giving them....
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