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Old 10-08-2009, 09:36   #16
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As another poster has already said it all depends on the type of cruising and where you intend to go. As far as davits go the ones made by OceanMarine are better than any others I've seen. As for a dink, unless you're going around the world and need to stow the dink I'd get a Hypalon RIB, get the biggest you can afford, a 10'06" one would be fine for your 38. Your dink is your lifeline when cruising. Not an item to go cheap on. And you really do need a 15hp two stroke motor. Forget the electric toys.
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Old 10-08-2009, 21:07   #17
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Achilles Air Floor...

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Have a look at my post #8 in this thread for general comments on dinghys.

Our Achilles is the 8' air floor with a 5hp Tohatsu. Really good when the boat is in a marina or going from a mooring to a marina.

Not so good at being rowed or dragged up into dinghy storage and left in the sun. We've replaced it with a 9' alloy and a 7' fibreglass pram for the time being.
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:24   #18
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We have a 9' Dyer dhow that we store on the coachroof. It doubles as the kids' sailboat. Ours has a "clear" bottom so it doesn't obstruct light coming in through the center hatch. We like it in the water but it's heavy to carry/move.
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Old 13-08-2009, 08:16   #19
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?Aluminum "roll-up"? - never heard of that style. I have had roll-ups and all the other styles and would like to second the votes for RIB's especially the aluminum hull RIB's. The big consideration is getting the dinghy high up out of the water which mean davits. Both for underway considerations of following seas and dinghy theft. If you cannot get the dinghy about 9 feet above the water then go with roll up or small aluminum rib's. The can be stored on the foredeck upside down when underway and hauled up on a spare halyard when at anchor.
- - Size is determined by your beam at the transom or the distance from main mast to bow if deck stored.
- - Weight is a very large factor if deck stored and aluminum seems to be very significantly lighter than fiberglass RIBs. Lighter also means smaller outboard to drive it.
- - Most dinghy theft is to get to the outboard motor, the actual dinghy is of little interest to the thieves and is normally abandoned after the motor is removed.
- - Get small link stainless steel chain (not cable) to lock the outboard to the dinghy along with the gas tank and finally the dinghy to any dock you are visiting. Cable does not work as the thieves can use nail clippers to cut through the strands. SS Chain is much more difficult for them so they go to steal from somebody else.
- - If you are only going to sail a limited amount in local waters the Porte-a-boat is great. Blow-up's are a problem because they will not hang on davits, they need to be deck stored. But they are less expensive. If you are in a rocky shore environment the FRG or Aluminum are very good as they can be dragged up over rocks without fear of ripping fabric. So your decision is really about what your sailing plans are and the boat size, areas you will sail in, and finally - what your budget will support.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:52   #20
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Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
The Torqeedo is a very nice package. I've looked at them with envy in the store and catalogs, but I'd be reluctant to own one for the following reasons:
  1. It's novel and attractive. A real theft magnet.
there are only few so if somebodt tries to sell one on the underground market it is much easier to trace than a classic petrol engine
  1. No way to secure it unless you can drill the shaft and lock it.
it is so light, why why would you secure it, once finished just take it off the transom
  1. That snap-on/off battery is very expensive. Anyone need a spare? They might just help themselves.
just take it with you
  1. If you take the battery with you you'll have an extra load to carry... Kind of like taking the front wheel when you lock a bike. Who wants to carry that?
I have seen people carrying their fuel tanks because they were being stolen
  1. Here's are the big questions: How are you going to recharge it when away from the dock? If you're not already producing an excess of wind/solar power do you have a genset? How long are you willing to run it? What's the recharge time? (Torqeedo catalog says 5-10 hours, and to me that says you need a spare battery along with you in the dinghy too, unless you know it's got enough charge to get you there and back http://www.torqeedo.com/uploads/medi...c_measures.pdf )
at least you can produce electricity try to produce fuel thats a lot more difficult
  1. You're more likely to use a dinghy frequently when anchoring out, and that's also when you're more likely to have higher power consumption for other stuff aboard, and no way to plug into shore power. What's the sense of having a quiet dinghy if your main boat alternator/generator is going to use even more fuel and make noise to recharge a dinghy battery?
  2. It's just an attractive toy.
so is a petrol engine, you can still use oars

Gas dinghy motors? Lower cost, easy, available, easily refueled in minutes, much cheaper than proprietary batteries or extra generation equipment, repairable almost anywhere with available parts/expertise. Carry an extra gas tank and probably nobody will steal it. Still a theft target but if you beat them up a bit or paint them in a unique way, and put a lock on the thieves will likely steal someone else's.
Gas dinghy motor? heavy, leaking oil, petrol, smelly, unreliable needs a lot of arm power to start (that's when it starts) , high theft percentage because nobody will ever recognize your outboard unless your painted right but then you can do the same with a Torqeedo.
YES you are right I am a Torqeedo lover, the best invention of the century!
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Old 04-09-2009, 19:10   #21
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Electric dinghy motor? No! I have had to use an electric motor when sailing a little teaching sailboat on a lake in Missouri that prohibited any form of gas powered motors. They work but the power (equivalent HP) is very limited due to electric consumption. The Torqeedo website talks about multiple AGM batteries necessary to get 48 volts for their model that is equivalent to a 8 (9.9)hp gas outboard. You are talking about hundreds of pounds of liquid acid batteries in a 8 foot or even a 9.5 ft dinghy? That is way beyond reasonable. It is just not practical. It is bad enough that a 4-cycle outboard weighs on average 40 lbs more than the 2-cycle outboard.
- - On a lake or very calm river/bay situation without big winds the electric is a viable possibility so long as it can run on a small auto battery. But not for ocean and island service. Our dinghies are used to ferry 2 or more people, plus tons of groceries, spare parts and also used as towing and pushing machines. Only gasoline has the energy reserves to operate the outboard for many hours of service at full power through winds and sometimes choppy waters.
- - In the islands even 4-cycle engines are too heavy and to much trouble. 2-cycle is what you see in all the marine stores and on all the local boats. The dinghy and engine needs to be rough and tough and even with the terrible pollution and noise, gasoline outboards are still the most viable solution. Even diesel outboards which are a lot safer than carrying around explosive gasoline are incredibly rare animals.
- - If you buy a known reputable brand outboard, starting is never a problem - barring water in the gas from rain. I was real upset that after two years of heavy use my gasoline outboard was getting difficult to start. Another cruiser asked me if I had ever changed the spark plug and I had to confess - no. Changed the spark plug and the engine works fine now.
- - Basically the problem with electric engines is not the engines - it is getting electricity to the engine and that means batteries, lots and lots of batteries. Which means lots and lots of lead weight. If they ever solve that problem so that the same energy in a dinghy can of gasoline can be equaled by an electric storage system of the same size and weight - then electric will be the obvious choice and gasoline engines will be relics of the past.
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Old 05-09-2009, 08:12   #22
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I have a 9' walker bay with inflatable floor. Very stable and light wieght (70 lbs). In the USA you can not buy a new 2 stroke gas outboard anymore (pollution issues). I bought a nissan 6 hp 4 stroke (it is heavy and wish I bought a used 2 stroke). The power is just enough to get 2 people up to plane and we have used it throughout the Bahamas, no problems.
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:20   #23
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I love my Boatex 10! It is a hard dinghy that has faithfully followed me for 12 years. The kids have abused it and so did I. It is easily repairable as it is made of fibreglass. It glides well and is very pleasant to row around anchorages in the early morning. You can fit more inside then you can in an inflatable and the thing never flipped over even in the harshest of conditions. I will be attaching a picture in the photo gallery for you to see. Unfortunately, they don't make them anymore but you could probably find a used one if you looked around.
Because it has holes to put the oar locks in, I run a cable lock through and through the oar locks as well. Very handy.
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:15   #24
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Depending on what you'll be using it for as said..and what kind of sailing you'll be doing..
I was sold on the RIB as the ease of use, and stable to get in and out of but over the past few years of cruising, we've gone through 2 and now have a hard dink.
The first failed due to the bottom giving out.. inflatable bottoms dont work when dragging them over rocks when landing ashore.. The second was an avon hard bottom with a folding transum. packed nicely into a package like a surfboard but started leaking around the lower area where the transum hinges, and nover could get it fixed right. have a little pram now..works Ok... looking at the Fatty Knees....
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Old 05-09-2009, 13:04   #25
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We have a small 9' hard dinghy make unknown. it is a sailing hull and serves well as a sailboat,paddle boat, rowboat or motorboat. I consider inflatables throwaway items. it seems like I see them everywhere falling apart discarded. Mine has been torn apart lengthwise beaten abused but is easy and cheap to repair. I wonder about the people that say you "need" a large outboard to plane with. My dinghy goes almost the same speed as my sailboat and suits me fine. Small 4 strokes arent as heavy as people make out. My merc 3 hp weighs 35lbs and runs about 4 miles on its one quart tank. I carry a 1 gallon can for reserve that seems to last forever.
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Old 07-09-2009, 03:12   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Electric dinghy motor? No! I have had to use an electric motor when sailing a little teaching sailboat on a lake in Missouri that prohibited any form of gas powered motors. They work but the power (equivalent HP) is very limited due to electric consumption.

You might have use an electric motor but not a Torqeedo, there is a HUGE difference see: this movie showing a "classic" electric motor versus a Torqeedo.


The Torqeedo website talks about multiple AGM batteries necessary to get 48 volts for their model that is equivalent to a 8 (9.9)hp gas outboard. You are talking about hundreds of pounds of liquid acid batteries in a 8 foot or even a 9.5 ft dinghy? That is way beyond reasonable.

That motor is designed to psuh pontoon boats and so not really you average dinghy


It is just not practical. It is bad enough that a 4-cycle outboard weighs on average 40 lbs more than the 2-cycle outboard.
- - On a lake or very calm river/bay situation without big winds the electric is a viable possibility so long as it can run on a small auto battery. But not for ocean and island service. Our dinghies are used to ferry 2 or more people, plus tons of groceries, spare parts and also used as towing and pushing machines. Only gasoline has the energy reserves to operate the outboard for many hours of service at full power through winds and sometimes choppy waters.

I use a Torqeedo 801 to push a 2,5 tons sailing yacht at 4.5 knots. How many tons of groceries do you usually transport?

- - In the islands even 4-cycle engines are too heavy and to much trouble. 2-cycle is what you see in all the marine stores and on all the local boats. The dinghy and engine needs to be rough and tough and even with the terrible pollution and noise, gasoline outboards are still the most viable solution. Even diesel outboards which are a lot safer than carrying around explosive gasoline are incredibly rare animals.
- - If you buy a known reputable brand outboard, starting is never a problem - barring water in the gas from rain. I was real upset that after two years of heavy use my gasoline outboard was getting difficult to start.

That is really the case with ALL petrol outboard cheap ones and expensive ones

Another cruiser asked me if I had ever changed the spark plug and I had to confess - no. Changed the spark plug and the engine works fine now.
- - Basically the problem with electric engines is not the engines - it is getting electricity to the engine and that means batteries, lots and lots of batteries.

The small portable battery included in the Torqeedo travel 401 will last 2 hours on fix rate and 6 hours on max range. A spare battery of 1.2kg will thus dubbel that range. What do you mean with lots and lots ?



Which means lots and lots of lead weight.
yes 1.2kg instead of a 10 kg fuel tank

If they ever solve that problem so that the same energy in a dinghy can of gasoline can be equaled by an electric storage system of the same size and weight - then electric will be the obvious choice and gasoline engines will be relics of the past.

Engine Thrust LBS WEIGHT

Torqeedo 401 40 9.5KG WITH BATTERY
Torqeedo 801 68 12.2 kg with battery
Cruise 2.0 121 18,5 without battery
Cruise 4.0 214 214 kg without battery
Mercury 2.5 hp 56 17 kg with fuel
Mercury 4 hp 71 25 kg with fuel
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:53   #27
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- - First, let's clear the air - Ataraxia are you in any way associated with or involved in or an employee of the Torqeedo Company in any way shape or form?
- - I am all for electric motors to replace internal combustion motors for both environmental reasons and for safety issues involved in carrying tanks of explosive gasoline/petrol.
- - Third the video you linked to is made by Torqeedo and obviously an invalid demonstration as the Torqeedo boat is smaller, lighter and better shaped. The "competitor's" boat is larger, probably twice as heavy including a mounted gas outboard, solar rack, and other hidden things most likely lead acid batteries. And, additionally, the most common electric trolling motors are designed for "quiet operation underwater" to avoid scaring away the fish. Torqeedo uses a much larger and more efficient prop.
- - Fourth, The Torqeedo website and data pages show the Model 401 (12VDC model) and Model 801 (24VDC model) equal to a 2 HP gas outboard. That power range is not viable for a current real world cruiser's RIB dinghy found on the average 40+ft (13m) boat. It is viable for an pure inflatable dinghy that a super economy 28ft (8.5m) sailboat would use.
- - Fifth, That leaves the Torqeedo Cruise models 2.0 and 4.0. Both of these engines require external batteries in the 225 Amphour capacity to achieve 3 hours of use (as shown in many of the UTube videos specifically about these model engines and by customer comments from Torqeedo dealers in the USA. Model 2.0 is shown as equivalent to a 6HP gas outboard. Probably the most used size outboard by cruisers on a tight budget. Model 4.0 is shown as equivalent to a 9.9HP gas outboard which is the most common size outboard for moderate budget cruisers. Both these units are viable, power-wise, as alternatives to gas outboards.
- - Sixth, Weight of batteries, both the Cruise models are recommended by the manufacturer's information to use 2- 12VDC batteries for the Model 4.0 and 4- 12VDC batteries for the model 8.0. Gel cell 8D batteries at 225 amp hours fit this requirement. 2- 8D gel batteries weigh 322 lbs ( 146kg) and 4- 8D gel batteries weight 644 lbs (292 kg). That is roughly equivalent to adding 2 to 4 extra people in the dinghy and does frequently exceed the rated legal carrying capacity of the smaller inflatable/rib dinghies common to this HP range.
- - 7th, forget all the above! The final determinant is cost of the systems.
Torqeedo sold in the USA - - vs. - - Mercury Gas outboards (2stroke-Caribbean)
Model 401 = US$1300 - - - - - - - 2.5 HP = US$700
Model 801 = US$1500 - - - - - - - 2.5 HP = US$700
Cruiser 2.0 = US$2700 - - - - - - - 5 HP/6HP(4-stroke) = US$1100/1500
Cruiser 4.0 = US$4000 - - - - - - - 10 HP = US$1650
2-Batteries = US$1200 - - - - - - - zero
4-Batteries = US$2400 - - - - - - - zero
- - Summary, Although the technology of the electric boat motor is very attractive and I for one, and I believe most others would flock to it both for environmental (something dear to the heart of sail boaters) and comfort of noise and ease of maintenance. But as shown electrics are twice to three times more expensive than the old gas outboard. A 15HP gas outboard, the current most popular size for catamaran and larger monohull sailboat dinghies is 1/3 the price of the Cruise 4.0 plus batteries. When push comes to shove, price is the determinant. Build a better mouse trap, fine but if the price is 2 to 3 times more than the old version, you will not sell many. If nothing else, sailboat cruisers are "cheap" (frugal, to be politically correct) otherwise we would buy motor yachts.
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:23   #28
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Not sure what your long term plans are, but if it's cruising, get a RIB now. You will get one eventually, you might as well belly up and get it now instead of wasting money. IT's your car... its important. On a 38 you can have davits. Once you have them, you will wonder what you would ever would have done without them. I wont go into the long spiel about the advantages here as I have before in a couple of posts. But think it through.
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Old 07-09-2009, 15:20   #29
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Everyone who assumes electric propulsion is "environmentally friendly" is making a big assumption:

1) What is the e-impact of utility-company or generator-produced electricity to charge batteries, vs. fuel in an internal combustion direct-drive engine? If the charge is not from wind or solar s it really more fuel efficient?
2) What is the e-impact of manufacturing the batteries?
3) What is the e-impact battery disposal and/or recycling?

Can anyone point to credible studies that aren't funded by a biased interest group?
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Old 07-09-2009, 15:51   #30
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I bought a Torqeedo 801. Expensive mistake. Nothing wrong with the motor or the company. Excellent product, competent, responsive people.

But the battery just doesn't last long enough, and you can buy another motor for the price of a second battery. Even two batteries don't last long enough.

I sold the Torqeedo to my brother in law and bought a Honda 2hp. It has the same power as the Torqeedo and a tank of gas lasts forever. It weighs a couple of pounds more, but that's no big deal. And the Honda was half the price.
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