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Old 17-04-2016, 19:42   #1
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Did I use the wrong sail?

I have a Hunter 44 with a B&R rig (e.g no backstay).Today, we were out in steady heavy air - minimum 16 knots max near 25. I elected to fly only our 110 Genoa which moved us along nicely. But then a question occurred to me. Am I doing the rig no favor to put all of that strain forward when I have no backstay? Or has that all been sorted out by the good folks at B&R?
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Old 18-04-2016, 05:10   #2
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

Oops - This should have read B&R!

Edited, Pete7
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Old 18-04-2016, 06:40   #3
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

You don't mention what point of sail you were on. I presume you were running or broad reaching?

In any case, with the wind abaft the beam, either sail will be imparting force on the mast which will tend to bend it forward, and this force is resisted by the backstay or, in your case, by the aft swept large spreaders.

I don't like the B&R rig, but it's designed to carry all the power your sails can produce and then some, so you shouldn't worry about it.


With the wind far abaft the beam, and when there's enough wind to drive the boat with just the headsail, I tend to get rid of the mainsail altogether and sail like you did. This moves the center of effort forward and stabilizes the boat. Pleasant sailing like that.
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Old 18-04-2016, 06:58   #4
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

I didn't think you can hurt the rig, I think you will decide your doing something foolish long before.
I'm not much of a sailor, jut a very new beginner, but if she sails fine with just the Genoa and doesn't take much of any rudder pressure to compensate, then I don't bother with the main.
I believe though that a B&R rig is similar to a lot of Cats in the the main is more power than say it is on my boat though, so I'd assume you will fly the main more often that I would.
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Old 18-04-2016, 07:00   #5
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

Op, my rig might be a bit heavier build then yours, but my preferred sail combination for single handing in confined waters is my self furling Genoa only. That way I don't have to leave the cockpit to mess around with my main (like to reef it).

I don't think it should be a problem as long as the boat sailed fine. I don't have much experience with those no back stay designs though.

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Old 18-04-2016, 08:17   #6
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

If the rig is tuned right you are 100% safe.

b.
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Old 18-04-2016, 08:59   #7
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You don't mention what point of sail you were on. I presume you were running or broad reaching?

In any case, with the wind abaft the beam, either sail will be imparting force on the mast which will tend to bend it forward, and this force is resisted by the backstay or, in your case, by the aft swept large spreaders.

I don't like the B&R rig, but it's designed to carry all the power your sails can produce and then some, so you shouldn't worry about it.


With the wind far abaft the beam, and when there's enough wind to drive the boat with just the headsail, I tend to get rid of the mainsail altogether and sail like you did. This moves the center of effort forward and stabilizes the boat. Pleasant sailing like that.
Forgive me if I am wrong. Many moons ago, I recall looking at a Vision at a boat show and had zero trust going in. The rep explained that you would sail them differently and like dinks and cat rigs. Mainsail always primary and headsails supplementary. The rake and tune within the mainsail. Needless to say, I never bought one or sailed on one, but the vision did catch my curiosity enough to talk to the rep.
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Old 18-04-2016, 09:15   #8
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

Not necessarily at it depends on your point of sail. I might have taken a double tuck in the main to balance out the helm and avoid dragging too much blade causing drag with a tendency to fall off as opposed to round up or come up to weather which a boat should naturally do.
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Old 18-04-2016, 09:22   #9
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

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Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
Forgive me if I am wrong. Many moons ago, I recall looking at a Vision at a boat show and had zero trust going in. The rep explained that you would sail them differently and like dinks and cat rigs. Mainsail always primary and headsails supplementary. The rake and tune within the mainsail. Needless to say, I never bought one or sailed on one, but the vision did catch my curiosity enough to talk to the rep.
Well, the headsail is nearly always primary on any bermuda rig, but it's more or less primary depending not on the standing rigging, but on the relationship between size of the sails. A catamaran with huge roachy main and tiny self-tacking jib obviously is more mainsail oriented. Any fractional rig also.

The Hunter Vision has a tiny vestigial jib:

Click image for larger version

Name:	hunter36_lineart1.gif
Views:	131
Size:	7.1 KB
ID:	122810

That's why you would concentrate on the mainsail, not because of the standing rigging.
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Old 18-04-2016, 09:27   #10
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

Quote: "I don't like the B&R rig..."

Now that IS interesting! I am sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate an exposition of WHY an experience man like DockHead doesn't like it :-)

I'm gonna have to get down to rendering the aft half of my cockpit habitable, which it isn't now cos the conventional backstay interferes with the head of anyone going there, even those who are short of stature.

I've been toying with bridling the lower 9 feet or so of the stay, taking the legs of the bridle to the transom corners, but if I'm going to do that, why not go the whole hog and set up a B&R?

What, DockHead, do you consider the downside of the B&R in general? Once I know that, we might discuss how TrentePieds would benefit from such a rig.

TIA

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Old 18-04-2016, 09:52   #11
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Quote: "I don't like the B&R rig..."

Now that IS interesting! I am sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate an exposition of WHY an experience man like DockHead doesn't like it :-)

I'm gonna have to get down to rendering the aft half of my cockpit habitable, which it isn't now cos the conventional backstay interferes with the head of anyone going there, even those who are short of stature.

I've been toying with bridling the lower 9 feet or so of the stay, taking the legs of the bridle to the transom corners, but if I'm going to do that, why not go the whole hog and set up a B&R?

What, DockHead, do you consider the downside of the B&R in general? Once I know that, we might discuss how TrentePieds would benefit from such a rig.

TIA

TrentePieds
It requires very high tension in the shrouds and intermediates, as they are doing the job of the backstay but with a large mechanical disadvantage. PLUS they are doing their own jobs. So it's concentrating a huge amount of force into the chain plates which are never strong enough (in my opinion) on production boats anyway.

And on top of that, you can't use an overlapping jib, so jib size is limited and right on top of that, you can't let the main out to a good angle for running because it hits the shrouds.

This works more or less ok on some performance catamarans with their huge roachy or flat top mains. They don't run in any case; they broad reach and gybe, so don't care about letting the main out further. On a mono, especially a small tubby one like the H36, it really limits performance.

A normal backstay is structurally much more elegant by taking those forces at best mechanical advantage and leaving the shrouds to do their own jobs.
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Old 18-04-2016, 10:05   #12
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post

I'm gonna have to get down to rendering the aft half of my cockpit habitable, which it isn't now cos the conventional backstay interferes with the head of anyone going there, even those who are short of stature.

I've been toying with bridling the lower 9 feet or so of the stay, taking the legs of the bridle to the transom corners, but if I'm going to do that, why not go the whole hog and set up a B&R?
It's called a split backstay. Many boats came with a single backstay which messes up the aft half of the cockpit. Then many boats split the backstay, but they didn't make the split high enough so BOTH side of the new split interfered!!! When we got our boat with the split backstay, we (like many other C34 skippers) raised the split a LOT. No problems in 18 years.
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Old 18-04-2016, 10:12   #13
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

Or double back stays, mine don't seem to be in the way.
Of course that is two chainplates and two stays. I'd go out on a limb and say it might just be less expensive to manufacture a boat with a B&R rig? Plus anything different, if you have a good marketing dept, you can say is better.
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Old 18-04-2016, 10:46   #14
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

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Well, the headsail is nearly always primary on any bermuda rig, but it's more or less primary depending not on the standing rigging, but on the relationship between size of the sails. A catamaran with huge roachy main and tiny self-tacking jib obviously is more mainsail oriented. Any fractional rig also.

The Hunter Vision has a tiny vestigial jib:

Attachment 122810

That's why you would concentrate on the mainsail, not because of the standing rigging.
That is also how I understood it explained by working more in concert to tune the rake, correct? Dropping more or all headsail and sailing the main more than with a traditional stayed fractional rig? Not for the rig, but design performance and higher wind tactics? Does the rig pump more on the Bermuda under head sail alone in higher winds, or still comparable to a stayed rig? Actually a good thread for the rest of us as I have wondered a lot of this for years every time I see one.
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Old 18-04-2016, 10:51   #15
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Re: Did I use the wrong sail?

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Or double back stays, mine don't seem to be in the way.
Of course that is two chainplates and two stays. I'd go out on a limb and say it might just be less expensive to manufacture a boat with a B&R rig? Plus anything different, if you have a good marketing dept, you can say is better.
If nothing else, the IP dual backstays make you feel better when one is used as an antenna for the SSB that there is another one without the insulators. That would be my argument for dual over split.


But then again, I agreed with Spinal Tap about having an amp that goes to 11...
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