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Old 14-06-2016, 11:37   #31
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos1955 View Post
You will find large steering wheels on racing sailing boats
Cruisers have hydraulic steering so there is no need for large steering wheel
I have sailed exactly one boat, out of more than 50, that had hydraulic steering. Very few of those 50 were racing boats.
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Old 14-06-2016, 11:42   #32
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Why have a wheel at all if leverage is not a consideration?

TrentePieds is fin keeled and has a spade rudder, regrettably. The rudder stock is set too far back at about 30% cord. 18% cord is good bei mir. My wheel wrecks the back porch for living space, and the house is high enuff to require standing up to see over it. Or leaning out quite far. I'm gonna have a go at a tiller with a hiking stick :-)!

TrentePieds
Have you thought of a folding wheel?

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Old 14-06-2016, 11:44   #33
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

Hydraulic steering on pleasure sailboats has little to do with weather helm,nor with strength to move the wheel. It allows the location of the helm or multiple helms without bothering with all the cabling required to link up to the rudder post.Simpler system and more robust. Sail boats under 60 feet just do not generate much rudder resistance that can not be overcome with a manual system.

Also nothing to do with full keeled vs. fin keeled configurations. Hydraulics are just plain easier to install and are relatively maintenance free compared to cable systems. The old rack and pinion Edson type systems could be used even on larger sailing vessels without needing deck apes to helm them.

Few sailboats under 100 feet lwl generate enough water flow under the hull to significantly resist rudder movement. Nor do most sailboats go so fast as to generate an equivalent resistance. In the extreme, even 80 foot canal barges moving at 3 knots can be steered with a steering oar, and that is direct drive without any mechanical advantages.
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Old 14-06-2016, 13:20   #34
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
my fin spade set up had large stainless wheel.
my barn door deep full keel has a small wood wheel. is easier to steer and tracks much better, due to design and intended use.
I never considered that; our boat's also full-keeled with a big/fully-attached rudder on the back of it; blithely fitting a smaller wheel as we have, to something using a spade rudder might have more ramifications.
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Old 14-06-2016, 17:22   #35
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

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Originally Posted by captmikem View Post
Airplanes have balanced rudders as well, here is a photo of my plane, notice the top of the rudder is balanced so that airflow over the top portion counteracts the force of the wind over the rest of the rudder when the rudder is turned.

(hopefully these photos will appear in the proper order)

Now, here is a photo of my boat’s rudder, no balance at all, but it handles easily with a 3’ wheel at 1.5 turns lock to lock. Contrary to what a few have said, the “feel” of the boat through the wheel is important, has the boat heels one feels a bit more pressure, if the boat is balanced the pressure is slight, but if you have no pressure the boat will ten to wander, this happens often with hydraulic steering.

I have built several yachts and did a lot of work on the proper size wheel to the rudder. Here is an 80’ Frers design I built at Palmer Johnson, and subsequently sailed her around the world. She had a 7 foot wheel on a balanced rudder, not quite 1 turn lock to lock. The diameter was this large so one could sit on either side and steer. She sailed like a dream (German Frers is a wizard), and when she would surf at 14 knots (took a BIG sea to surf her), you could steer her with two fingers.

And here is one more boat I built up in Maine at Hodgdon. BIG rudder. She has hydraulic steering with two large wheels, we tried to get feedback with hydraulic gear, but she never really had any feel in either wheel.


Hope this helps,

Michael
*** Thread drift warning!!!

G'Day Mike,

First, nice post, but...

When I saw the pic of Turmoil I was whisked back to Tonga in 2001, where we met you and Jo while sailing our much smaller PJ Insatiable! I remember well how impressed we were with that boat... what a beauty! At any rate, glad that you are still in the cruising world. Would be great to catch up somewhere and tell lies about the good old days.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 14-06-2016, 18:10   #36
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

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*** Thread drift warning!!!

G'Day Mike,

First, nice post, but...

When I saw the pic of Turmoil I was whisked back to Tonga in 2001, where we met you and Jo while sailing our much smaller PJ Insatiable!
Cheers,

Jim
Jim! Bloody Hell! Good to hear from you! PM sent!
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Old 14-06-2016, 18:19   #37
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

Leverage, sure, also the social one. You may notice Oyster wheels are actually bigger than Bavaria ones!

I do not believe in stupid questions. If a question is genuine, it can be naive but never stupid. And if an idiot is curious then it is just as good. All good scientists are curious too. You are in good company.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 14-06-2016, 20:11   #38
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

Im learning a lot. Thx all.
Also got questions #2 and 3 answered too.LOL.
Now Ill have to think up some more. Shouldn't be hard.
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Old 15-06-2016, 00:44   #39
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

If it is a hydraulic system, you can have a small wheel..???
That is bullshit! Unless you have powesteering
Hand Hydraulic steering is not different from mechanical. The oil is the chain or the cable.
Only perhaps with less friction.
My 27 m schooner steered very light. Hand hydrauic with 22!!! Turns lock to lock.
Only needed that in harbour, manoeuvering under power.
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Old 15-06-2016, 01:26   #40
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

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Originally Posted by jakkum View Post
If it is a hydraulic system, you can have a small wheel..???
That is bullshit! Unless you have powesteering
Hand Hydraulic steering is not different from mechanical. The oil is the chain or the cable.
Only perhaps with less friction.
My 27 m schooner steered very light. Hand hydrauic with 22!!! Turns lock to lock.
Only needed that in harbour, manoeuvering under power.
I guess there are many alternatives. In my boat the (second) pilothouse steering wheel is small and it takes three rounds to turn it all the way from left to right. Its speed is adjustable, and I use the fastest speed. I would make it even faster if it would be possible since it is still light to turn.
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Old 15-06-2016, 08:20   #41
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

Quote: "Have you thought of a folding wheel?"

Yes, Jack, thank you, I have - and flatly rejected the thought ;-0)! The problems is not just the wheel, its the damn binnacle. What do I need it for? You know the Salish Seas as well as I do, I'm sure. There are few place where, except in fog, you need even a compass :-)!

I was on the hard last week. As luck would have it, a sister ship was also there. That owner had a queer-shaped spade rudder, so I measured it and sketched it for comparison purposes. It's 30% bigger that mine and balanced 15/85%. It was owner built cos that boat had been as squirrelly as TrentePieds. Now, sez the owner, she is much better behaved.

Another item for the bucket list, eh :-)?

Now, what I DO want to do, is fabricate a fitting that will take a "stock" for a tiller. This fitting will be bolted to the inside of the transom and activate the actual stock via trammels tied together with a simple pair of cables. That will give me a tiller which I want because - as people keep saying - it gives "rudder feel", and the cockpit will become livable when the binnacle goes :-)!

Oh, what about the compass? I had a devil of a time finding a pair of binocs with a bearing compass in the LEFT reticle. My right eye wears a patch ;-0)!

TrentePieds
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Old 15-06-2016, 08:38   #42
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

"Oh, what about the compass? I had a devil of a time finding a pair of binocs with a bearing compass in the LEFT reticle. My right eye wears a patch ;-0)!"

Think you need a big green parrot for your left shoulder.
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Old 15-06-2016, 09:27   #43
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post

Oh, what about the compass? I had a devil of a time finding a pair of binocs with a bearing compass in the LEFT reticle. My right eye wears a patch ;-0)!

TrentePieds
Hmm, turn 'em upside down? Of course, you'd have to be able to read the card like a salesman.
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Old 15-06-2016, 14:11   #44
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Quote: "Have you thought of a folding wheel?"

Yes, Jack, thank you, I have - and flatly rejected the thought ;-0)! The problems is not just the wheel, its the damn binnacle. What do I need it for? You know the Salish Seas as well as I do, I'm sure. There are few place where, except in fog, you need even a compass :-)!

I was on the hard last week. As luck would have it, a sister ship was also there. That owner had a queer-shaped spade rudder, so I measured it and sketched it for comparison purposes. It's 30% bigger that mine and balanced 15/85%. It was owner built cos that boat had been as squirrelly as TrentePieds. Now, sez the owner, she is much better behaved.

Another item for the bucket list, eh :-)?

Now, what I DO want to do, is fabricate a fitting that will take a "stock" for a tiller. This fitting will be bolted to the inside of the transom and activate the actual stock via trammels tied together with a simple pair of cables. That will give me a tiller which I want because - as people keep saying - it gives "rudder feel", and the cockpit will become livable when the binnacle goes :-)!

Oh, what about the compass? I had a devil of a time finding a pair of binocs with a bearing compass in the LEFT reticle. My right eye wears a patch ;-0)!

TrentePieds
ARRRGGHHH MATEY!!

(only pirate smiley we have. Whats up with that on a sailing forum?)
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Old 15-06-2016, 15:22   #45
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Re: Curious idiot question #1

There's a dichotomy, squid: Some of us don't think pirates are funny or nice at all, and other's think that's a killjoy attitude. Others' still, have opinions about it somewhere in between.

Ann
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