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Old 07-11-2018, 15:40   #241
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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I just read through five pages of this. Here are a few observations:

First, could all the old farts like me stop making stupid generalization about Millennials? These sorts of generalization are mostly wrong and at the least based on something someone read or heard on tv. Just as you can't generalize everyone who graduated from High School in the '60s as a "hippy", you have to stop generalizing about this group.

Secondly, could we please stop presuming one-size-fits-all for what constitutes a "cruising boat". That's equally silly. People cruise in all sorts of boats - even power boats and catamarans. I have a distinct memory of looking across an anchorage in the Marquesas and seeing boats from 23' to 68' and sailors of every age. It was 1991 and there were 23 boats there. I was there a few years ago and there were 35 boats in the same anchorage at roughly the same time of year. There were sailors of every age and the boats were almost exactly the same size range. There were, however, three trawlers that weren't there before. We have to stop generalizing without data, it's not helpful.

Finally, there are some innovations that make cruising a LOT better, and many that don't at all. During the '80s GPS began to become affordable and by our cruise in '91 we found were one of the 5% or so in the S. Pacific who had it. That made reaching hard to find places much safer and easier. Now, we have all sorts of electronics which improve things and make things safer and easier for a very small cost. Another example is refrigeration, which used to be terribly expensive and difficult to maintain. It isn't any longer. The list goes on and on. In the '70 on a cruise to the Caribbean there wasn't any roller furling, now it's reliable and common. etc... etc... etc....

If anyone actually cares to make a difference and build the cadre of sailors who do want to go cruising, the method we're employing seems to work. We find young people we like and take them sailing with us. Not daysailing but long passages where they stand watches, learn to navigate, and repair stuff that breaks. We recently brought our boat up from Los Angeles to San Francisco with a crew of two old farts like me, one 40-something and two millennials. Two and a half days on the wind with wind speeds above 30-35k for the later 2/3s of a 370 mile passage. The millennials love its. They were great to sail with and have signed up for some more trips. We turned them into cruisers. They are currently looking to buy a 35' boat and move aboard. I'm sure they'll be sailing for decades.
Couldn’t agree more... I’m somewhere between the Millenials and the youngest Baby Boomers - times were changed everywhere and with everything. I think that we have a little (big) mission here to bring more kids and young adults to sailing and cruising by demonstrating the positive experience in their eyes with what we do and can do: stay highly social, communicate, workout, innovate and stay open to accept new technologies, social media (which is what we have here on a bit archaic platform- how about adding an Instagram feed?...).
I would encourage anyone here to think of creative ways to bring more and younger generations on board, rather than criticize any post 60’s generation.

Personally, I volounteer at the Boston Courageous Sailing Center, where ~1,000 kids, mostly from less fortunate socioeconomic background gets a complete sailing and racing program free of charge. Highly recommend looking at such opportunities wherever you are. They are our future!

Nitzan
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Old 07-11-2018, 15:43   #242
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

Personally I think fewer the better, but OK,

getting low-income kids in on the action, I'll sign up for that.

But only if I can keep being a grumpy old man shouting at clouds.
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Old 07-11-2018, 16:00   #243
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Personally I think fewer the better, but OK,

getting low-income kids in on the action, I'll sign up for that.

But only if I can keep being a grumpy old man shouting at clouds.
Haha - the great news for you is that the oceans are just growing up with the global warming so you’ll find enough empty waters with enough clouds too. On your way just stop at the next port and join the school’s sailing education and who knows, you might like that so much and decide to stay with the crowds...
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Old 07-11-2018, 17:05   #244
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

I think we can all agree: times are different. People are motivated by different things. Boats are more expensive. Boats are more complicated. People are more specialized. There are tons of 40 year old boats out there with many seaworthy years left in them.
There. Everybody happy?
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Old 07-11-2018, 17:39   #245
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Originally Posted by Beau.Vrolyk View Post
I just read through five pages of this. Here are a few observations:
First, could all the old farts like me stop making stupid generalization about Millennials? These sorts of generalization are mostly wrong and at the least based on something someone read or heard on tv.
Wait, what?
You're now writing grumpy stuff because you read too much grumpy stuff?
Well...we did need a little comic relief here...
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Old 07-11-2018, 23:34   #246
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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I think we can all agree: times are different. People are motivated by different things. Boats are more expensive. Boats are more complicated. People are more specialized. There are tons of 40 year old boats out there with many seaworthy years left in them.
There. Everybody happy?
I do...
Just on the 40 years old seaworthy boats...
Even seaworthy is a relative term. And the costs to refit a cruising boat for today’s “seaworthy” standards can easily get to X5 of the hull+deck+mast of an old seaworthy “object” . That’s unless the former owners invested that money along the recent 5-7 years with all the necessary updates, repairs and maintenance. I’m still laughing reading listings describing as “new” for upgrades made 15-20 years ago...
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:50   #247
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Personally I think fewer the better, but OK,
....
I cannot agree more but unfortunately it is not happening.

Very nice places that were a paradise 20 years ago, like the Balearic Islands, are today so overcrowded that is "normal" to be at anchor with the boats very near.

And this is when you are able to find a place, meaning anchoring without touching the other boats, on many places not even this way you will be able to find a place.
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Old 08-11-2018, 13:03   #248
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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I cannot agree more but unfortunately it is not happening.

Very nice places that were a paradise 20 years ago, like the Balearic Islands, are today so overcrowded that is "normal" to be at anchor with the boats very near.

And this is when you are able to find a place, meaning anchoring without touching the other boats, on many places not even this way you will be able to find a place.
I'm curious, Polux: do you think these boats now littering your anchorages are privately owned or charter boats? Here in Oz, the only crowded anchorages that are not near big population centers are where there are big charter fleets.

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Old 08-11-2018, 13:21   #249
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pirate Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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I'm curious, Polux: do you think these boats now littering your anchorages are privately owned or charter boats? Here in Oz, the only crowded anchorages that are not near big population centers are where there are big charter fleets.

Jim
That is for sure in the Ballearics.. Plama harbour is stacked full off charter boats.. lots off cats and anchorages have been turned into mooring fields to cram more charter boats in daily..
It was getting bad in Andratx in the mid 90's with idiots leaving their boats to drag coz they did not know the bottom..
Now I rarely stop in the Ballearics.. maybe one night on a delivery or briefly to refuel.
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Old 08-11-2018, 13:23   #250
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

I doubt if it will ever be difficult for those who want, to get away from other people in Australia
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Old 08-11-2018, 16:13   #251
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Consider that most new college grads, of which are a higher percent of the population compared with 20 years ago, graduates with a huge debt. They can't afford a house or much of anything for the next 20 years. We have become a nation of indentured servants because of college loans.

Additionally, earnings have been flat for 15 years partially because in a world economy we are competing against people making 5 dollars a day. So we have to compete in a world economy and the resulting wage pressures so in equalized dollars most are making relatively less.

In the end there are fewer people with sufficient disposable income for yachting.

Second issue is sedentation. It's indulgence in computers and computer games. An article published today is complaining that med students don't have the manual dexterity to tie sutures. https://www.bbc.com/news/education-46019429

It's because they are not used to working with their hands. So if you aren't good at working on stuff how are you going to own a boat?

Along with that consider that a third of the kids I graduated from high school with lived on the farm. Probably 10 percent are on the farm now at the same school.

Fundamental social and economic changes are most likely the reason why there are many older sailors and fewer younger sailors and why fewer new boats are being sold.
Charles with the collage graduation rate it has held pretty steady at around 35% of those that enter graduate for at least back to the 1980's. The problem is the proliferation of student loans has made it much more affordable for people to get into collage in the first place. What makes it a trap for many is the fact that most collage degrees so not translate to the real world that well anymore making their student loans a burden with no usable degree to pay it off.
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Old 08-11-2018, 16:53   #252
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

In Oz, we've noticed that since we "allowed" women to take full-time jobs, starting pretty much back in the Sixties but accelarating in the 70s and 80s, the purchasing power of households went up dramatically, so too did the price of real estate. People pay what they can afford, so that's where the market settles.
Not that I'm advocating we should send women back to the kitchen sink....
Just sayin'...
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Old 08-11-2018, 17:40   #253
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Charles with the collage graduation rate it has held pretty steady at around 35% of those that enter graduate for at least back to the 1980's. The problem is the proliferation of student loans has made it much more affordable for people to get into collage in the first place. What makes it a trap for many is the fact that most collage degrees so not translate to the real world that well anymore making their student loans a burden with no usable degree to pay it off.
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Old 08-11-2018, 19:01   #254
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

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Wait, what?
You're now writing grumpy stuff because you read too much grumpy stuff?
Well...we did need a little comic relief here...

LOL!

Well I was grumpy because so many people were being grumpy about the wrong stuff.

I think that it's ok to be grumpy about folks over-generalizing. Basically, I don't think a bunch of 60-year-olds should be pontificating about all the things that are wrong with "millennials". They should, at he very least, tell us how they know these problems exist.

I was a teenaged sailor in the '60s. I can guarantee you that the 50 and 60 year olds in the mid-60s were appalled at the way young sailors behaved in the '60s. Why should these current folks have a free pass to moan and complain about young folks now that they are old farts?? Give me a break.

Old farts just don't like change. They should accept that get over themselves. There are lots of millennials who are out sailing, they just aren't talking to old farts on the Cruiser's Forum.
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Old 08-11-2018, 19:28   #255
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Re: Cruising Sailboats: a Dying Breed?

I’m 61. My kids are 22 and 25. I could be grumpy about them and their age cohort. Then again my parents could have been grumpy about me and my sibs.
From 20 BC Horace:
“Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more
worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more
corrupt.”

I happen to think that there are many amazing young people in the world today.
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