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osirissail · 23-05-2010, 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

as you are going throu the prices , I'm finding you are missing items. . . . . its the little things that eat your funds and you forget those little things. . .

Truer words were never spoken. Your theoretical list of costs is just that "theoretical." There are a 100 little things that will cause your budget to double, triple, even quadruple when you get out into the real world.
- - For instance, anchoring is not free. In may places there are "harbor fees" (for the privilege of anchoring in their waters) that run from $15/month in the D.R. to $TT50 in Trinidad and EC$75 in Grenada to $140 for a week in St Martin (Dutch side). Galapagos reportedly averages about $500 for a couple of weeks. More and more island/countries have caught on that there is revenue floating out there in their harbors and bays.
- - Thinking you can eat on $100 or less per person per month is okay if you are an anorexic and can live on 2 carrots a day. Food costs throughout the whole world are generally much higher than what you are spending at home unless you are willing to eat cow heel soup; handgrenade chicken; pig tail soup; breadfruit and pigeon peas. Almost all of the Caribbean islands import their food from producers in South America and elsewhere countries import from huge agri-business corporations located in 3rd world and 1st world countries. The freight costs make up 2/3 of the wholesale price of the food with the retail price being multiples of that. Locally grown food is very rare or non-existent. So plan on spending more than what you spend at home - not less.

Mambo · 23-05-2010, 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours...

Who is that Heinlien?

**boatman61** · 23-05-2010, 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mambo

Who is that Heinlien?

Heinlien.. who's that..?? Never heard of him... well familiar with Hieniken tho'...

No.. its from 'The Reluctant Messiah' by Richard Bach..

Mambo · 23-05-2010, 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Heinlien.. who's that..?? Never heard of him... well familiar with Hieniken tho'...

No.. its from 'The Reluctant Messiah' by Richard Bach..

That's right -- barnstorming and cloud vaporizing and all -- I always liked that line. I probably read Bach and Heinlien (Robert Heinlien - probably best known for "Stranger in a strange land") within the same couple of years.

Randyonr3 · 23-05-2010, 07:24

Im not say you cant cruise on 500 per month.. think its very possible but you dont have to go to the extent that you show..
friends of ours are in a small bay about 60 miles south of PV and have been anchored out over the winter for about 350 per month, total expence.. but I'm sure befor they cross to the south pacific, they'll visit the city and catch up on what they didnt spend..
Our boat, or as you call it a condo, is well equepted, but still very ecconomal when cruising.. the motor for instance has had less than 100 hours put on it over the last 7 years as we normally, when leaving a port, cut the power and raise the sails once we're in open water. My total expence for the motor, a 4-108, has been a couple gallons of oil for oil changes and a couple filters.. Maybe 30 dollars for 7 years..

**boatman61** · 23-05-2010, 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mambo

That's right -- barnstorming and cloud vaporizing and all -- I always liked that line. I probably read Bach and Heinlien (Robert Heinlien - probably best known for "Stranger in a strange land") within the same couple of years.

Thanks for that... I'll give him a read...

Always enjoy tongue in cheek alternative/irreverent perspectives

**boatman61** · 23-05-2010, 07:41

Oh... by the way INDY.. I'm not Portuguese.. just in Portugal at the moment

goprisko · 23-05-2010, 09:33

Thus far we have outfitted the Southern Cross 31 with the following:
Full suit of sails $ 3500
Anchors and gear $ 2800
Galley including cooker, sink and hand pump $ 1500
Head including LAVAC, sink, and plumbing $ 1200
Standing Rigging, wire, turnbuckles, sockets $ 2116
Running Rigging , rope, winches, blocks $ 4400
New bottom paint, including haulout $ 1000
Oil Lamps $ 1800

TOTAL $ 17,316
We have assumed that the hull and deck have been examined and all open items from the checklist are dealt with.

From the above, we can see what a deal a boat in good condition represents.. For example, the boat available in Luperon, DR is bringing only $ 12.000 for the hull, deck, mast, engine, and interior.

Before we continue, however, let’s re-examine the anchor and chain issue…

I did some shopping around and defender has 5/16” hitest galvanized chain in half pails of 200’ for $870
In Boats and Harbors, Allen Machine advertizes this chain for $ 0.98 / ft. It pays to shop around… let’s assume we can go to ACCO direct and get the drum for $3/ ft. Our chain cost drops to $ 600. Let’s assume we form a company and get a Port Supply account, which gives us 35% off on West Marine items..Our Danforth anchors now cost $ 120, our bowers $ 180, and the luke stays at $700.
So we have the following:
Luke storm anchor $ 700
2 44# bruce anchors $180
2 24# Danforth Anchors $120
200’ 5/16” HiTest Chain $ 600
TOTAL $1500 ,
given a 20 year life for this kit this costs $ 30/ yr
Through depreciation based upon current replacement cost of the major items on the boat, with the assumption that the basic GRP structure will last indefinitely, and need not be depreciated, we have an idea of the real cost of owning this boat., which we summarized as $1800 per year… note that a third of this is ICE for refrigeration.. we can reduce operating cost to $100 per month by eliminating ICE, if we choose to. Another large chunk is the oil lamps.. apparently oil lamps and their supplies are not free. Can anything be done about this? As a matter of fact it can.
Let’s examine the impact of lighting the boat with 5 watt LED lamps, and replacing the ice box with an ENGLE 45 qt fridge and two Zone, and replacing the nav lamps with LEDs. We are choosing this fridge because it only draws 2.5 amps when running, and it runs about 35% of the time at 2oC in the tropics. This fridge is routinely used on expeditions in the Kalahari and Namib Deserts with ambient temperatures > 40oC.
The power consumption of the fridge will be 25 amp hours / day or 300 watt hours
Navlight 60 watt hours
Anchor Light 60 watt hours
Interior Lights 20 watt hours
TOTAL 440 watt hours
A 60 watt solar panel can produce 360 watt hours during a typical day, but we must budget for battery storage losses, so we will need two panels.

LEDs and ENGLE Fridge

ITEM

Size

#

Price /ea

TOTAL

LIFE

LED Lamps
5 watt

5

30

$150.00

Masthead Tricolor, anchor with automatic photodiode
5 watt

1

341

$341.00

Battery Switch
200 amp

1

83

$83.00

DC Circuit Breaker Panel with volt and amp meters
5 branch circuits

1

423

$423.00

Two Conductor Tinned Marine Cable-interior lighting
12 guage

25

1.4

$35.00

Three Conductor Tinned Marine Cable- mast lighting
14 guage

40

1.4

$56.00

Solar Panel
60 Watt

2

120

$240.00

Solar Panel Controller
10 amp

1

90

$90.00

$1,418.00

20

$70.90

ENGLE Fridge
45 qt

1

800

$800.00

7

$114.29

Gp 31 deep cycle battery
115 amp hr

2

130

$260.00

7

$37.14

Annual Operating Cost

$222.33

Making this change eliminates $ 400/ yr in annual operating cost. This change reduces annual operating cost to $ 1400 / yr. very close to our ideal of $100 / month.

Now, le\t’s review our depreciation assumptions:
The SC 31 sold for $ 80,000 new in 1980.
Currently a good one is on offer for $ 29,000, and several have sold for $ 24,000, it would seem that the boat is worth about $ 25,000 in operating condition today, 30 years after it was built, and it has depreciated $55,000 or ~ $ 1800 per year. This means the boat will be fully depreciated at the age of 44 years, ie worthless. We know this is unlikely, given depreciation of this kind of asset generally follows the declining balance method, but this exercise does give us the round estimate of a useful life for the boat and everything on it of 50 years. So we can reasonably estimate the annual cost of the boat we purchase by assuming it will continue to depreciate as it has in the past. Note this sum $ 1800 per year is very close to the figure we developed independently. This means an allowance of $ 1800 per year for operating cost of this boat will very likely be sufficient. Since the stock SC 31 includes an engine.. the difference between our $1400 figure and the $1800 figure must be allocated to the engine. The engine will cost us $ 400 per year in operating costs, not including it’s fuel.
IN SUMMARY:
THE Southern Cross 31 can be cruised without an engine for about $ 1400 per year. The boat as we configured it has slightly worn sails with much life left, has a LAVAC water closet, a Princess two burner LPG stove with oven, renewed standing and running rigging, suitable ground tackle, a dinghy, new bottom paint, and no engine.
Most of this expense is depreciation, but what items should we expect to require replacement during our cruise?
From my experience with this gear we should plan on the following expenses:
Replacement of sheets and halyards $450 at 10 year intervals = $ 45/yr
Replacement of diaphragm in Henderson pump $ 60 at 5 yrs = $ 12/yr
Replacement of LAVAC seals $45 at 10 yrs = $ 5/yr
New ENGLE fridge $ 800 at 7yrs = $ 110/yr
New Gp 31 batteries $ 260 at 7 yrs = $ 37/yr
Servicing of Winches annually $ 54 for service Kit ea 5 yrs = $ 10/yr
Diinghy oars $ 140 at 10 yrs = $ 15/yr
Ship’s oar $ 240 at 10 yrs =$ 24/yr
Bottom paint $ 500 at 5 yrs = $ 100/yr
Topside paint $ 200 at 5 yrs =$ 40/yr
FynSpray Pumps $ 10 at 2 yrs ( repl leathers ) =$ 5/yr
Deck Paint $120 at 5 yrs =$ 24/yr
Interior Paint $120 at 5 yrs = $ 24/yr
Plumbing $150 at 10 yrs = $ 15/yr
Wiring $ 100 at 10 yrs =$ 10/yr
Replacement bulbs $200 at 10 yrs =$ 20/yr
Regalv Chain $ 300 at 10 yrs =$ 30/yr
Replace Sails $3500 at 10 yrs =$ 350 /yr
TOTAL $875 / yr The balance is allocated to a rainy day fund to cover contingencies.

goprisko · 23-05-2010, 09:44

I took us through this exercise, because this is the sort of exercise any wannabe should go through on the boat he is considering. Yes, it is not a definitive exercise, but even so, loopholes can be closed, and we have shown in several ways that the southern cross 31 will require about $ 1400/yr for operation and maintenance WITHOUT AN ENGINE, and $1800 with one.

Since navigation costs can be prepaid, through advance purchase of the equipment and charts and pubs, our wanna be need only worry about food, medical, entertainment, customs,clothing, and excursion costs. He can try the diet he is planning on using during his cruise and delineate food costs, he can also analyze his clothing costs, and he can plan his cruise and estimate his customs costs. If he buys Lonely Planet guides for the places he wants to visit, he can budget for his major excursions, further delineating his operating costs.
Of course, he should have a rainy day fund for contingencies, and should allocate funds for miscellaneous expenses too.

INDY

**boatman61** · 23-05-2010, 09:46

60w solar panel, solar module 60w
60W Solar panel kit
SOLAREX|BP-350U|SOLAR PANEL, 50W | Farnell Australia

goprisko · 23-05-2010, 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Oh... by the way INDY.. I'm not Portuguese.. just in Portugal at the moment

NICE TO MEET YOU !!

INDY

goprisko · 23-05-2010, 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Im not say you cant cruise on 500 per month.. think its very possible but you dont have to go to the extent that you show..
friends of ours are in a small bay about 60 miles south of PV and have been anchored out over the winter for about 350 per month, total expence.. but I'm sure befor they cross to the south pacific, they'll visit the city and catch up on what they didnt spend..
Our boat, or as you call it a condo, is well equepted, but still very ecconomal when cruising.. the motor for instance has had less than 100 hours put on it over the last 7 years as we normally, when leaving a port, cut the power and raise the sails once we're in open water. My total expence for the motor, a 4-108, has been a couple gallons of oil for oil changes and a couple filters.. Maybe 30 dollars for 7 years..

I disagree, I think taking us through this exercise has cut to the quick, and we are now singing off the same page.

We can move on to very interesting things like sharing notes on inexpensive places to visit, and cheap ways to see them..

For example, earlier it was mentioned that St. Maarten costs $50 per day.. May be so, but you can enter on the french side at the Capetanerie just off the canal, anchoring in the lagoon on the French side for $5 as my friends on Merengue do..

INDY