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Old 16-05-2011, 03:38   #1471
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
I get the feeling that this thread is under attack by flamers who are trying to destroy any rational discussion of the subject of minimalist budget cruising. Especially since such statements like the above come from a mono-hull owner who does not own a multi-hull by their own admission. I believe that does a serious disservice to folks who are honestly considering how to move from their current land life into a life-style of adventure as a cruiser.
.
No, I'm quite serious. Before buying my current boat I almost bought a Tangaroa and I'm currently looking at moving to a multihull. High on my lists are Wharrams and Searunners, and I've got a set of Wharram study plans sitting on my bookcase as we speak. The Tiki models are quite popular in my area of Thailand with one charter company using them exclusively. Despite what you say about wood/epoxy boats lots have been sailed/cruised around the world. The history of Wharrams and Searunners speak for themselves I think. Some people are scared of them and some swear by them. Others (most non-European) seem to feel the same about alu boats (which I love by the way).

Personally, I would not try to build one from scratch ... too time consuming and expensive. But I would not hesitate to buy a well built and maintained used one.
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Old 16-05-2011, 03:44   #1472
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Shane Acton ("Shrimpy") went RTW in one of these:-





Plywood and 19 foot (Caprice)........not a Boatman style 21 foot mega yacht
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Old 16-05-2011, 03:51   #1473
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Nope... its not under attack by 'Flamers'... only seems that way coz some of us disagree with you... the 'so called 'Thorny Path' and the Caribbean/US coastlines are not the only cruising grounds in the World and folks successfully cruise thousands of miles of Northern Europe and the Atlantic coastline/Med in these so called 'flimsy wood/ply death traps'... all I'm trying to point out is that there are other paths than Goprisko's way or the Highway..... . .
And with that I would thoroughly agree - there are many, many different ways to join the community of cruising folks. As I said, cruising to me is just using a vessel to get from one great adventure to another while taking your home with you be it a weekend, a month, or years.
- - Yet the initial premise of this thread has long since matured and now we are getting into petty bickering and injections of - IMHO - way off the mainstream topic of how a person without advanced sailing knowledge or experience can join the community of cruisers when their financial resources are extremely limited. Limited so much that living in a first world country is really depressing while the opportunity to live elsewhere in a much more satisfying and personally comfortable style can happen by cruising.
- - The mainstream of today's cruisers are more in the $5K/month realities than $500/month and the initial premise I remember was how can somebody do it on a minimalist budget. Your own experiences seem to indicate a successful - with an occasional disaster here and there mixed in for spice - ability to cruise the dream.
- - Still you are in a way right about the actual audience for this thread is by and large North American since the desire to escape the lunacy is stronger than experienced by a more mature society on your side of the ocean.
- - And to others, remember "almost" only counts when playing horseshoes. The vessels we do actually get as "newbies" are by and very largely solidly in the mainstream of available boats currently being produced. We dream of metal but we end up with plastic. Those boats are available now and can get the newbie going with minimal additional resource requirements. As others have mentioned, waiting 5 or 10 years to get out there is not what the initial questions about minimalist cruising were directed to - it was how can it be done now.
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Old 16-05-2011, 07:28   #1474
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Obtaining a Cruising Boat..

The figures I quoted on pp 28-36 were market prices for a boat in good
condition, and for the material and equipment necessary to bring it up to
cruising ready.

While seemingly expensive to several, these figures can get one a boat suitable for living aboard immediately, and if lucky, another's project nearly ready to cruise. For example, the SC 31 in Luperon is cruise ready, she sailed there from the US. She merely needs a cleaning fuel and water, and you are ready to go down island.

Certainly, there are cheaper boats, as CallMeCrazy has shown, boats can be had for a few thousand dollars US. Unfortunately, one will find these boats to be worn out. Specifically, were these wood or steel boats, they would be scrap. However, GRP has indefinite life, and the hull and deck of boats built during the classic period 60-79, were so over engineered, that they survive in rebuildable condition to this day.

Rebuilding a boat is not a trivial task. Were it so, I'd not have found projects for sale by their owners.

Whether rebuilding or building, the cost of the site is a consideration. If the project will take 2 years, and the site will cost $500/month, $12,000 will go to site costs alone. Thus, a project such as this must use a free site. This means you must own or rent a property with sufficient space for the project, in a location with tolerant neighbors, which you are using currently for other purposes such as your domicile.

I quoted the retail price for the refurbishment items, and you can most certainly do better.... By opening a wholesale account, salvaging a worn out boat equipped with items you need, or buying from a salvor such as SailorMan of Miami.

Scrounging takes time, so the more you do, the longer the project will take.

Having refurbished a Tartan 27, and built a Pegasus 45, I can unequivocally state that building a new hull and deck, will go faster than stripping and rebuilding a hull/deck of similar size. Also, building new gives one a "new" boat with better resale value should you choose to sell out and do something else.

It may prove better to take a second job, and save as much as possible, by living as frugally as possible, for a year to accumulate funds, than to rebuild a worn out boat starting now.

For those of you with dreams but no experience, it most certainly will prove much wiser to take on extra work, join a yacht club, learn to sail, crew on club boats, and on boats of the type you want, than to immerse yourself in a boat project.

Seriously consider building Chameleon, and learning to sail in her. You will need a dink anyway. What if you discover you don't like sailing? Then what?

Rather than rag at me, demanding I show you how to do the impossible, build Chameleon, or a Lightning, or refurbish a Rhodes 19, and go sailing. Cruise in the Lightning or Rhodes. There are many fine places to go in such a boat.... Chesapeake Bay, Florida Bay, Maine Coast, North Channel, Puget Sound, and San Francisco Bay to name a few...

Fair Winds!
INDY
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Old 16-05-2011, 08:17   #1475
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Re: Speed of monohull boats 28-34 Ft LOA

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Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
The boats in this size range generally have LWLs of ~ 25 ft. They are capable of speeds up to 7.5 knots, plus a little more if driven hard. At 7 knots, such a boat covers 170 miles / day. Averaging this speed implies several things:

a) the boat is driven hard
b) the sails and rig are sound
c) the boat is loaded so the VCG is at or below the design level

Generally, these boats do 5-6 knots up wind and down wind. Their best
speeds are on a reach.

You can help matters with sail selection. However, it will become evident that fast downwind passages require true wind speeds of 20 iknots coupled with a nylon drifter/reacher on the jib stay and a full main. Fast upwind passages require a 115% staysail (deck sweeper) and a #1 yankee, both of which should have drafts in the 10% range and mid chord for all sails should be 45% aft of the luff, and twist should be ~ 20 degrees or so.

Reaching, a preventer is needed to control twist on the main, and poles may be needed to wing out the jib and staysail.

Since it is 1200 miles from Maine to St. Thomas, these boats can do the voyage in 8 days. Though most take 14 days over the passage. Likewise these boats can run the old bahama channel and voyage from St. Thomas to Ft. Lauderdale in 7 days given the assistance of the Gulf Stream on this 1200 mile voyage.

Multihulls seldom do better than these figures.

I recommend each and every one of you read "Gentlemen's Guide To Passages South" by Bruce Van Sant. Acquaint yourselves with "Leisure Cruising". I believe you will find it a better path.

INDY
Thanks...aside from telling us what works and doesn't in your world...

now we have to read what you read and believe people you consider gurus/experts.

At first I agreed with a lot of what you said as a lot of it is technically correct...then with your level of assumption rising, I started to ignore more and more...now I have reached the point where it doesn't matter what you write (and it seems a few other posters are feeling the same way)...you are living in a dream world because reality has proven that a lot of your "wants/musts" in a boat aren't necessary. Plus...you seem to be trying awfully hard to convince a lot of experienced people that your way is the "right" way when a lot of people DON"T CARE about some of the things you hold dear...THEY JUST WANT TO CRUISE....
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Old 16-05-2011, 09:22   #1476
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Today's blog post from this young couple on their HR Rasmus indicates that right now, today, in the Caribbean, they are spending $500-800 a month.

Seems it can be done.
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Old 16-05-2011, 09:28   #1477
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Re: Outfitting on a Budget...

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Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
That wasn't me... I have a relatively lightweight 30 footer that I paid $4k (estimated about $10k to get it ready for long-term cruising, but perfectly ready for some basic cruising as is). It will cross oceans and carry me and everything I need with it.

It wasn't exactly my boat of choice (I'd rather have a Wharram or Searunner ), but it was the right boat at the right time, and for the right price. If I had $40k to build a boat, I wouldn't build a boat I would probably buy a $5k boat and spend $5k prepping it, then have $30K left over to live on $500 a month for the next 5 years


That was me.
I bought a 1972 (though the title says 1962) Contest 33 for 2800.00 USD.
Look we are all forgetting one thing. Everyone is different. i personally do not want to sail a Multihull. I'm more of a traditionalist.
That doesn't mean I don't consider Marks Knowledge and experience to be unusable . I have talked to him about things such as getting off the beaten path and going to where the locals go to eat and saving that way. Staying out of the tourist traps is as important to the budget as the cruise, Gunkholing, and getting supplies are to me. And he knows a lot about where to go, Where the locals are, and what to see. How to get there and where to resupply.
Only Experience teaches you these types of things and Goprisko is the same. He has shown me websites and suppliers that are more then reasonable. But am I going to build a boat? Oh Heck No!
Not when I can get the deal I got.

Now can I see the world on 500 a month. Yes I think I can. You may not be able to but our situations are so different from each others what do you expect. Orrisail is in Orlando because of health reasons, Many of you have kids and wives,I'm free as a lark and ready to go tomorrow if I can.
But alas! I have to get the great boat I just got in February ready to cruise. I need to build her from the water up for my own safety and well being. Not to mention the sallon needs to have some modifications also. I want to make her mine now not the last owners boat.

Here is my 5 year plan
1. get a good old boat. Check that one off.
2. Get the little problems handled first one at a time and add a modern head system.
3. Rewire entire boat and add 4 batteries and 2 charging systems.
4. crew at the local Yacht club. (just put the flyer on the cork board this weekend)
5. Save for paint, seacocks,thruhulls, Keel Bolts...etc (In the Next 2 years I plan to change out every seacock and thru hull on the old girl as well as rebed all the hardware and paint the decks)
6. make sure the money fund is getting to where it needs to be. (Oh yes I have already started the kitty and I plan to build it over the next 5 years)
7. Sail Sail Sail. (As the Pardeys say the only way to get experience is to go sailing)
8. Make sure all replacement parts are in their bins and storage places, make sure that every system has a back up and all wirnig rigging and line is onboard and stowed properly.
9. Sell business and pay off all bills and debts.
10. Invite everyone on CF to a party on the Beach in Fiji...

Remember I don't have any kids, a wife, or Home to hold me back. I have been downsizing for over a year now and I still have STUFF to get rid of. How do we buy so much $h^t? )
If I get a request to crew for a week on a sail to Mexico tomorrow I can drop everything and go. A lot of you out there cannot say the same.
On the other hand I am not completely there yet. I could go to the keys or further south but at this point I just want to get to a point where I start off in good to great shape as far as a sea worthy boat goes. Everything else is PRICELESS!

Keep arguing though. It keeps this thread interesting.
P.S.
Boatman, DOJ, CallMeCrazy, and all you others. You gotta meet me in Fiji People.
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Old 16-05-2011, 11:03   #1478
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Re: Outfitting on a Budget...

I would suggest that rebuilding an older boat from the ground up is overkill. Depending on the specific boat of course. But even some of the really crappy one's I looked at when I was shopping around, did not need to be rebuilt as INDY is suggesting.
No offense intended INDY, but I think You are drastically underestimating the value of a good old boat, as well as the current yacht market which is continually declining as we speak. There will (generally) be no need to 'rebuild' anything except an occasional bulkhead and maybe the motor (again, depending on the boat). You shouldn't need to purchase all new hardware, portlights, winches, spars, rudders, etc... If a person shops around well enough, they can get a complete boat that is actually ready to go offshore for under $10,000 (example).
Worse case scenario (if you do your shopping) with a sub $5000 boat in TODAYS market, is you would need all new rigging and an overhaul on the motor (or if it's small enough, a new outboard on the back). Everything else are just additions and upgrades. No need to strip the boat and and start over with a bare hull.

I understand 'to each his own' etc, etc... But we are not talking about 'budget cruising' since it's been proven that everybody has their own definition of what that means. What we're talking about is the lowest end of the possibility scale, $500 a month. You pretty much can't go any cheaper than that. And if a person is in the situation where they NEED to go that cheaply, they will not be building a boat, rebuilding a boat, doing extensive refitting, or worrying about how much their boat displaces...

Unless we are talking about cruising AFTER you spend X amount of the boat... in that case, it just doesn't make any sense (to me) to spend 25-40k on anything, and then limit yourself to living on such a meager budget. You can double your living budget by cutting the boat budget in half.

The BEST way () to go cheap on the boat is to GO SMALL. the smaller the better. I'm already considering trading down to a smaller boat just so I won't ever have to buy 5/8" rope again! The price jump between a 25-27 footer and a the 30+ footers is HUGE. Everything from shackles to lines to paint to anchors. If somebody really wanted to cruise around the world and they were limited to a meager budget in the realm of $500/mo, the simplest and easiest solution is to go as small as they can manage.
There's people doing it every day, so the arguments of whether it can or can't be done or moot at this point. I've read about people cruising the south pacific in boats as small as 24' (a bristol 24) as well as more than a few 25 footers. There was a lady who sailed to Hawaii in her Cape Dory Typhoon not too long ago... There are boats, like Boatman's Corribee, that have been known to travel the entire globe, including high latitudes (see thesimplesailor.com).

I can see how some people NEED to cruise on $500 a month after they've spent their life fortune on their boat! but REALITY is that if you can afford a $20-40k yacht, then you can afford a lot more than $500 a month, if not, you're doing something wrong....

The only way to save money is to not spend it.
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Old 16-05-2011, 11:44   #1479
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

CMC is correct IMHO ! The best way to sail cheaply is a smaller boat. Which is what Gorprisko has been saying through out this thread. The idea of going large on a small budget is just not doable. Go small and live in the cockpit and on shore when you get to where your going. The boat is for cooking, stowage, and going to bed. That's All!
I just had a hard time fitting into a 24 to 29 footer. I like space down below and though the boat I have is only 10ft6 in beam it feels even bigger to me.
As far as length I was worried about stowage.
When I leave the States (god willing) I won't be provisioning here. I was thinking about going to Mexico or Panama for the long haul provisions or have a bulk food company send it to a P.O. box in the islands some place. I will leave with enough for two or three weeks but for months at a time I think I will use my greenbacks wisely in another country or online. Lots of rice and beans in the future for me.

Now you know why I have to add a modern head to the boat...:-)
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Old 16-05-2011, 12:38   #1480
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Today's blog post from this young couple on their HR Rasmus indicates that right now, today, in the Caribbean, they are spending $500-800 a month.

Seems it can be done.
Yes, it can. Before leaving La Paz, in mid April, I met a young (late 20's) couple from Bellingham, who had sailed down the west coast in a 26 footer. They were prepping to leave for Hawaii a week or so after us. They cooked on a camp stove and had a pressure cooker. They had no engine, and when I ask what they had for a battery bank, they said double A's. They did have a steering vane. She had been working at the wooden boat building place in Bellingham, as he had for a short while, and he had been a baker.

I gave them some Pacific charts I had to take to the copy shop, and they showed up finished with a chocolate cake made in the pressure cooker for us. My skipper for the trip, Brian, lent them his cruising guide for Hawaii, and they brought it back several days later with a gift of banana bread. I told them about this site and this thread, and they smiled saying, "We're doing it on quite a bit less than that." They should be just about getting in to the anchorage on the south shore and I am looking very forward to seeing them again. I have great respect for what they are doing and their lighthearted enthusiasm and determination are inspiring.
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Old 16-05-2011, 14:29   #1481
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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...When I leave the States (god willing) I won't be provisioning here. I was thinking about going to Mexico or Panama for the long haul provisions or have a bulk food company send it to a P.O. box in the islands some place...
FYI, just as a point of reference, it costs us about US$120 to ship a 60 lb box of stuff we can't buy here from Richmond, Virginia to Nevis in the Caribbean, and that's before any customs duties are applied.
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Old 16-05-2011, 17:07   #1482
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Today's blog post from this young couple on their HR Rasmus indicates that right now, today, in the Caribbean, they are spending $500-800 a month.

Seems it can be done.
I believe $500/month is doable but I wouldn't use this couple as an example. I say this for a couple reasons but mainly because they have only been cruising a few months which is not enough to establish a solid track record for cost per month.
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Old 16-05-2011, 17:19   #1483
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Have to admit it's been amusing watching the guys with the 53 foot and the 45 foot boat telling the guy with the 21 footer he doesn't know what it takes to cruise in a small boat.

Last year we met a family of 4 cruising in a small Wharram cat, living very frugally. I guess they didn't know they couldn't do it either...
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Old 16-05-2011, 17:41   #1484
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pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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FYI, just as a point of reference, it costs us about US$120 to ship a 60 lb box of stuff we can't buy here from Richmond, Virginia to Nevis in the Caribbean, and that's before any customs duties are applied.
Moral of the story... 'When in Rome.... eat Pasta...'
But seriously... think about the things that last and you crave... for me its Marmite... Brit Veggiemite... everytime I go to the UK for a boat I restock... butters everywhere and so is bread... but Marmite for my toast....
Love English/Danish bacon as well... seems nowhere else in the world knows how to make bacon... evrywheres got high fat wafer thin crap... end up with little crinkly bits and a pan full of lard... yuuk.. sadly its lasts a week at most if no fridge so I live without... unless I stop at Gib
But a rice and bean diet is sad... use your imagination... the only tins I carry are fruit...
A lot of veg and roots... even fruit can last a surprisingly long time... as long as you don't buy it in supermarkets... its usually been frozen or chilled for transporting and that brings life down to a few days... go for the local markets.. sweet potato's, cabbages, onions, courgettes etc will last long enough to do a 2 week passage and eat well... I've had fresh peaches last from the Azores to UK... and that was nearly 3 weeks...
Its all a learning curve and the more you learn the cheaper you live... and I have a handicap most of you folk don't suffer from... I don't eat fish...
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Old 16-05-2011, 17:43   #1485
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Have to admit it's been amusing watching the guys with the 53 foot and the 45 foot boat telling the guy with the 21 footer he doesn't know what it takes to cruise in a small boat.

Last year we met a family of 4 cruising in a small Wharram cat, living very frugally. I guess they didn't know they couldn't do it either...
Oh yes indeedy. This entire thread is so full of senseless silly stuff. Everyone's an expert! Even when you straighten someone out about something, say costs to ship goods into some idyllic spot, you have to beat someone over the head for them to get it. Ah, the sweet bird of youth.

Still, I've enjoyed this thread. I've posted several thoughts and Indy has only kicked me off one time. Arrogance, plain and simple.
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