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Old 15-05-2011, 10:22   #1456
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Outfitting on a Budget...

Per CallMeCrazy " So obviously there is large discrepancy between cruising on a budget AFTER you spend all your money on a boat (of any type), and BECOMING a cruiser when you are already living on this same tight budget.
Knowing that this discrepancy exists means it should be pretty easy to understand how some people in expensive multi-hulls are capable of cruising on $500 a month even though their boat may have been more expensive and unsuitable for budget cruising.

It's no different than somebody building a nice heavy 32 foot mono-hull in their backyard.
They too, have spent far more moneys on their boat than any reasonable budget cruiser would have spent on a fixer upper. "

All very valid points.... which we covered in pp 28-36. There, we set an upper limit of $25,000 on the purchase and $15,000 on outfitting. We did not set a lower limit. We specifically recommended the wannabe look for a boat designed to the CCA rule in the 60s-70s and suggested strongly that one look at boats on the "Good Ole Boat List"
Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom -* Good Old Boats List - choosing a* small voyaging sailboat

Further, we showcased 4 boats, the Oday 30, SC 31, Tartan 34, and one other. Using the SC 31 as our example, we covered basic vs optional gear, and developed a proforma fitting out budget and operating budget.
We emphasized the need to choose a boat that sails well, and has sufficient displacement to carry the items necessary.

Again, all this is covered in pp 28 - 36.

The GFC has made many bargains available, as CallMeCrazy showcased with his Contest 33. He showed us how to approach Charities holding donated boats to get bargains, and given such boats suit, they are most certainly the way to go.

I mentioned that a custom boat in this size range is also possible for those able to put together $ 40,000 over a 2 year period.

I recommended Aluminum as the material, and did a proforma costing of such a boat. I recommended anyone choosing this route form a company and use that venue to get any and all discounts available.

The advantage of building were mentioned at the time and I mention them again here:

Everything is new.
There are no leaks.
Modern designs have higher freeboard than those of the classic period, are drier as a result, and offer more accomodation options.
Aluminum offers the lightest possible hull, reducing ballast mass, while keeping stiffness
Modern shoal draft designs are more weatherly than those of the classic period, and include boats drawing 0.6 m. These boats were developed to meet the needs of European Sailors who must cope with large tides ( > 10 m) and whose sailing grounds are the bays and sounds of east Great Britain, Holland, Germany and France. In those places one can be caught out by falling tides, and it is beneficial to have a boat that dries out upright. The Presto Sharpie hull has been improved here into hulls that draw fractions of a meter, have a flat midships section, swing or drop keels and kickup rudders.

A modern 36 ft Cutter can offer a U shaped galley, nav station, large saloon, pilot berths, and generous storage, including 250 gal water and 125 gal fuel. Higher freeboard coupled with a deck house means the cockpit is at deck level, requiring no drains or seacocks, the LPG tanks are stowed in the cockpit lockers and drain over the deck and overboard. Look at the Hallberg Rasseys for examples.

Given the use of a composting toilet, keel cooled dry exhaust engine, and deck level cockpit, the only seacock on the boat could be for the sink/bilge pump.

Taking a page from my experience delivering Osiris for Jim, put external track on the mast, and use Teflon lined slides and a bullet block on the head of the main, and do without the winch. Ditto for the jib and staysail.
Use a 4/5 part mainsheet and do without the winch, there.

This can reduce the number of winches to 3 two for the jib and one for the staysail.

INDY
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Old 15-05-2011, 11:31   #1457
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Re: Outfitting on a Budget...

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Originally Posted by goprisko View Post

The GFC has made many bargains available, as CallMeCrazy showcased with his Contest 33. He showed us how to approach Charities holding donated boats to get bargains, and given such boats suit, they are most certainly the way to go.
That wasn't me... I have a relatively lightweight 30 footer that I paid $4k (estimated about $10k to get it ready for long-term cruising, but perfectly ready for some basic cruising as is). It will cross oceans and carry me and everything I need with it.

It wasn't exactly my boat of choice (I'd rather have a Wharram or Searunner ), but it was the right boat at the right time, and for the right price. If I had $40k to build a boat, I wouldn't build a boat I would probably buy a $5k boat and spend $5k prepping it, then have $30K left over to live on $500 a month for the next 5 years


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Old 15-05-2011, 12:00   #1458
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Re: Outfitting on a Budget...

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Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
That wasn't me... I have a relatively lightweight 30 footer that I paid $4k (estimated about $10k to get it ready for long-term cruising, but perfectly ready for some basic cruising as is). It will cross oceans and carry me and everything I need with it.

It wasn't exactly my boat of choice (I'd rather have a Wharram or Searunner ), but it was the right boat at the right time, and for the right price. If I had $40k to build a boat, I wouldn't build a boat I would probably buy a $5k boat and spend $5k prepping it, then have $30K left over to live on $500 a month for the next 5 years


Exactly.
That's the position I'm aiming for. $5k of upgrades over time is doable at the $500 a month budget too.
Could a boat be built at $500 a month? Sure, if you want to take the rest of your natural and have a nurse sail it.
This whole thread as well as others has got my head in a total contrary spin.
I was hoping to go off on a budget. So, can we get this back to the aim of the thread in real terms. Can a bloke or a gal for that matter, or even both, buy a cheap boat, fix it up and sail off for $500 a month?
Not can they invest in property big enough to build a boat on. Not can they invest in boat building courses to build said boat and then the few grand transport costs to the nearest water.

Callmecrazy is doing it. In a fashion I can follow and understand. Buying a sound hull and deck with a decent engine. That to me is the priority. Then by doing the work oneself restoring the vessel to cruising standard over time within the constraints of a budget.
Many others too are doing it and their contributions are so valuable to folk like me.
But, if we take Gopriskos route, I'm gonna need to work as a stockbroker for the next ten years to get the initial investment. If I've gone to all that trouble I wont be worrying about a budget will I?
I loved reading the Bumfuzzle story. They travelled cheap and were woefully inexperienced but made it work. A great story and a great motivator but they had the finances to fund all this up front so become irrelevant.
Can we all just go back to page one for the likes of me and get this thread about cruising on $500 and the initial purchase for some one that would be planning such a low budget.

Just sayin'
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Old 15-05-2011, 14:36   #1459
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Folks can always start another thread if they find this one does not meet there needs.......

Won't guarantee that will stay 100% on topic either though But a gentle meander through a topic can often be more informative than a lecture or a sermon Even if they do make good car crash entertainment
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Old 15-05-2011, 15:04   #1460
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pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

ROFL... aint got any needs for tips on budget cruising... seems I've done a lot more of it than 'Moses'....
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Old 15-05-2011, 17:30   #1461
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pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Tips for budget cruising: May I suggest a trip to the library? The topic has been seriously covered for years now. Used book stores have these by the dozens. There's so much more to learn no matter where you are on the scale. Guess that's why this is a lifestyle rather than an activity for many of us.
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Old 15-05-2011, 17:40   #1462
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by tgzzzz View Post
Tips for budget cruising: May I suggest a trip to the library? The topic has been seriously covered for years now. Used book stores have these by the dozens. There's so much more to learn no matter where you are on the scale. Guess that's why this is a lifestyle rather than an activity for many of us.
So true! You gotta ask yourself, how many cruising on a budget books do we need? The information doesn't really change that much from year to year, but we get a new one or two every year. It's our version of the "cookbook" or the "diet book". Everyone looking for some new trick that's going to make it all work and work easily. Obviously, Indy (goprisko) has his designs on a book ... but its all been said before.

We learn how to cruise on a budget by "doing" it, not by researching it too death! IMO of course.
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Old 15-05-2011, 21:46   #1463
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Re: Outfitting on a Budget...

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Originally Posted by Hillbillylad View Post
Exactly.
That's the position I'm aiming for. $5k of upgrades over time is doable at the $500 a month budget too.
Could a boat be built at $500 a month? Sure, if you want to take the rest of your natural and have a nurse sail it.
This whole thread as well as others has got my head in a total contrary spin.
I was hoping to go off on a budget. So, can we get this back to the aim of the thread in real terms. Can a bloke or a gal for that matter, or even both, buy a cheap boat, fix it up and sail off for $500 a month? . . .
Just sayin'
Way back when in this thread or another one, I mentioned that you do not need to build any of these small boats and you don't need a lifetime to get it ready. These small boats are available virtually FREE.
- - Driving up and down the east coast of Florida and even in the islands there are dozens if not hundreds of abandoned good little sailboats lying beached or stuck in the mud just about everywhere.
- - What you need is the gumption to search them out, get hold of the local sheriff and officials and propose to them that you will get that boat out of their hair. Sheriffs titles and procedures require little money but do require some time to jump through the legal hoops but you end up with a good starting point to put together your minimal budget cruiser.
- - In fact I have a couple of friends here in central east Florida who make a decent living out of doing just what I described above. They get the boats for only the cost of the legal paperwork, spend $2K or $3K cleaning it up and making it pretty then take it to New England and sell it for $10K or $20K for the larger ones.
- - The reason these boats are still all over the place is that it costs the local government about $30K per boat to do all the stuff the government must do to remove the boat. So if you come along and offer to remove the boat, you can expect them to break into a big smile and do everything they can to assist you getting legal title to the boat.
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Old 15-05-2011, 22:14   #1464
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Re: Outfitting on a Budget...

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Way back when in this thread or another one, I mentioned that you do not need to build any of these small boats and you don't need a lifetime to get it ready. These small boats are available virtually FREE.
- - Driving up and down the east coast of Florida and even in the islands there are dozens if not hundreds of abandoned good little sailboats lying beached or stuck in the mud just about everywhere.
- - What you need is the gumption to search them out, get hold of the local sheriff and officials and propose to them that you will get that boat out of their hair. Sheriffs titles and procedures require little money but do require some time to jump through the legal hoops but you end up with a good starting point to put together your minimal budget cruiser.
- - In fact I have a couple of friends here in central east Florida who make a decent living out of doing just what I described above. They get the boats for only the cost of the legal paperwork, spend $2K or $3K cleaning it up and making it pretty then take it to New England and sell it for $10K or $20K for the larger ones.
- - The reason these boats are still all over the place is that it costs the local government about $30K per boat to do all the stuff the government must do to remove the boat. So if you come along and offer to remove the boat, you can expect them to break into a big smile and do everything they can to assist you getting legal title to the boat.
Thank you very much for sharing this!!

As I said earlier, we budgeted < $ 25,000 for the purchase of a boat 28-34 ft LOA in repairable condition, and < $15,000 to clean it up and refurbish it. How much less is up to you.....

INDY
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Old 15-05-2011, 22:15   #1465
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I like pup tents.... you guys obviously have pretty small ones in the States....
James Wharram Catamarans - Photo albums.

Personally I'd go 30ft for long term cruising... but something tells me I'm wasting my time on here... there's none so blind as those who will not see....
Boatman, you just don't get it.

It's his way or the highway (sounds better - than the ocean).

I certainly did not see the thread as cruising on $500/month on a monohull.
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Old 15-05-2011, 22:27   #1466
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Speed of monohull boats 28-34 Ft LOA

The boats in this size range generally have LWLs of ~ 25 ft. They are capable of speeds up to 7.5 knots, plus a little more if driven hard. At 7 knots, such a boat covers 170 miles / day. Averaging this speed implies several things:

a) the boat is driven hard
b) the sails and rig are sound
c) the boat is loaded so the VCG is at or below the design level

Generally, these boats do 5-6 knots up wind and down wind. Their best
speeds are on a reach.

You can help matters with sail selection. However, it will become evident that fast downwind passages require true wind speeds of 20 iknots coupled with a nylon drifter/reacher on the jib stay and a full main. Fast upwind passages require a 115% staysail (deck sweeper) and a #1 yankee, both of which should have drafts in the 10% range and mid chord for all sails should be 45% aft of the luff, and twist should be ~ 20 degrees or so.

Reaching, a preventer is needed to control twist on the main, and poles may be needed to wing out the jib and staysail.

Since it is 1200 miles from Maine to St. Thomas, these boats can do the voyage in 8 days. Though most take 14 days over the passage. Likewise these boats can run the old bahama channel and voyage from St. Thomas to Ft. Lauderdale in 7 days given the assistance of the Gulf Stream on this 1200 mile voyage.

Multihulls seldom do better than these figures.

I recommend each and every one of you read "Gentlemen's Guide To Passages South" by Bruce Van Sant. Acquaint yourselves with "Leisure Cruising". I believe you will find it a better path.

INDY
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Old 15-05-2011, 22:45   #1467
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Re: Outfitting on a Budget...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbillylad View Post
Exactly.
That's the position I'm aiming for. $5k of upgrades over time is doable at the $500 a month budget too.
Could a boat be built at $500 a month? Sure, if you want to take the rest of your natural and have a nurse sail it.
This whole thread as well as others has got my head in a total contrary spin.
I was hoping to go off on a budget. So, can we get this back to the aim of the thread in real terms. Can a bloke or a gal for that matter, or even both, buy a cheap boat, fix it up and sail off for $500 a month?
Not can they invest in property big enough to build a boat on. Not can they invest in boat building courses to build said boat and then the few grand transport costs to the nearest water.

Callmecrazy is doing it. In a fashion I can follow and understand. Buying a sound hull and deck with a decent engine. That to me is the priority. Then by doing the work oneself restoring the vessel to cruising standard over time within the constraints of a budget.
Many others too are doing it and their contributions are so valuable to folk like me.
But, if we take Gopriskos route, I'm gonna need to work as a stockbroker for the next ten years to get the initial investment. If I've gone to all that trouble I wont be worrying about a budget will I?
I loved reading the Bumfuzzle story. They travelled cheap and were woefully inexperienced but made it work. A great story and a great motivator but they had the finances to fund all this up front so become irrelevant.
Can we all just go back to page one for the likes of me and get this thread about cruising on $500 and the initial purchase for some one that would be planning such a low budget.

Just sayin'
For the record, my original suggestion was to purchase a CCA boat 28-34 ft LOA from the classical period (60s-70s). For less than $25,000 and refurbish it, WHILE YOU STILL HAVE A JOB.

CallMeCrazy and OSIRISSAIL have shown us that boats are available for much less, ~ $5,000 and in some cases free. Generally, these boats are worn out, and will provide little more than a hull, deck, mast, and boom.

I pointed out that materials for a hull and deck in aluminum are ~ $7,000.

Given a two year outfitting period from scratch to sailing, about $1500 / month must be devoted to outfitting and putting by a cruising kitty. Several contributors acknowledged that this is doable on a working man's salary.

Can you do it for less? Of course you can! Just trade time for the money saved.

My focus is on bringing the discussion back to the basics, from which it drifts, whenever I am gone on a voyage.

So let's recap:

You need a boat 28 -34 ft LOA
You must refurbish it if it is old.
You need anchoring gear
You need sails
You need flags
You need a windvane
You need a cooker, sink, galley pump (hand)
You need a bucket for use as your head
You need navigation and cabin lights (oil or LED)
You need a steering compass and a deviation table for it
You need a hand lead, chip log, windex
You need charts, weems plotter, dividers, pencils, eraser, hand bearing compass

You can salvage these items from old boats, including wrecks and give aways.

You need a hard dink and can build a suitable one (chameleon) in a very short time.

Everything else is optional.

INDY
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Old 15-05-2011, 23:07   #1468
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

For $25K, I'd put my money in this and have a better platform for living aboard, especially in the tropics.

Tikaroa - For Sale
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Old 16-05-2011, 02:47   #1469
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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For $25K, I'd put my money in this and have a better platform for living aboard, especially in the tropics.
Tikaroa - For Sale
I get the feeling that this thread is under attack by flamers who are trying to destroy any rational discussion of the subject of minimalist budget cruising. Especially since such statements like the above come from a mono-hull owner who does not own a multi-hull by their own admission. I believe that does a serious disservice to folks who are honestly considering how to move from their current land life into a life-style of adventure as a cruiser.
- - As I said before folks have crossed oceans in literally anything that floats and even one guy named "Bricka" walked across the Atlantic Ocean on two skinny pontoons (sort of a multi-hull) one on each foot from France to Antigua with a harness attached to a raft of his supplies. You can look it up under the title "One Bricka Short of a Full Load."
- - But the idea of anybody spending US$25K (18K Euro) for a boat built from plywood of any sort, mono or multi for serious minimalist budget cruising falls in the same category as those I would like to sell a certain bridge in Brooklyn to . . .
- - As a real cruiser you are going to hit things and make gouges in your hull(s). Flexing and bashing into seas such as is normal on the Thorny Path to the Caribbean will quickly take a toll on a plywood boat that will not occur in a FRG or even better yet a metal boat. Such gouges from contact with rocks, reefs, and other of Neptune's hazards to mariners will quickly compromise the integrity of the wood and allow all sorts of little critters who love to eat wood infest the boat's hull. I have seen grown men cry in boatyards when their absolutely gorgeous wooden boats are smashed into pieces to fit into the dempsy dumpster because of worm infestations.
- - The minimalist budget cruiser, IMHO, 99 times out of a 100 is going to go mainstream with FRG and if they are lucky and can afford or find a metal boat in good condition really join the mainstream world cruiser community.
- - Time after time in real life I have seen minimalist budget cruiser have to terminate their dream as the cost of repairing their boat exceeds their budget. The boatyards in Trinidad and many other places are full of such boats along with bays and backwater harbors all over the world.
- - So maybe it is time to close this thread . . .
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Old 16-05-2011, 03:21   #1470
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pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Nope... its not under attack by 'Flamers'... only seems that way coz some of us disagree with you... the 'so called 'Thorny Path' and the Caribbean/US coastlines are not the only cruising grounds in the World and folks successfully cruise thousands of miles of Northern Europe and the Atlantic coastline/Med in these so called 'flimsy wood/ply death traps'... all I'm trying to point out is that there are other paths than Goprisko's way or the Highway....
If this thread is designed solely for the US market please say so and I'll keep my nose out... if its supposed to be for the general boating world then you should know there's no Teredo Worm over here... we have something called Gribble... not as voracious but given a free rein can be pretty destructive.. thats why I love epoxy... coz they hate it..
If you look at my albums you'll see I've worked my way through a variety of boats from 100K down to as little as 1K... depending on the rise and fall of my finances... and not all are posted
I'm not the guy who stands crying as his boat disappears... **** happens... if you can't accept that stay in bed, I just go out and start again..
its what happens when you 'Budget Cruise'.. you can't fight 'Murphys Law'.
At the moment I'm at the bottom again... a 1500euro boat thats got me non stop from the UK to Portugal and when its refurbished.. another 1500euro and a lotta sweat.. she'll be good enough to take me anywhere I want to go...
I'd love to be a 'Budget Cruiser' on a Pegasus 45ftr or a Gulfstar 53ftr... but then again I'm just as happy with my Corribee21... its not whatya got its how ya use it...
Must admit... my cruising grounds fairly small compared to some... Nth Atlantic/Med/Caribbean.. but everyones gotta start somewhere.....
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