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Old 14-05-2011, 14:06   #1441
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Good point, frank. An OP doesn't "own" a thread.

Indy, your tendency to jump on people with both feet if their comments happen to fall outside your notion of what's "allowable" in the thread borders on rudeness. We try to avoid rudeness here on CF
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Old 14-05-2011, 17:18   #1442
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Re: Multi hulls vs monohulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Mark's diatribe is a self serving tome.

Monohulls have proven themselves suitable for a variety of climates,
have sufficient carrying capacity and storage lockers, provided
the interior is properly laid out.

They are self righting, from knock downs, which multi hulls are not.

They are cheaper to operate. Handier in tight places. and coast from
one puff to another due to higher inertia.

Regardless, they are not suitable for micro-budget cruising which is the focus of this thread. Please take the discussion elsewhere.

INDY
Come now Indy, telling another poster to "please take the discussion elsewhere" is really not very nice.

I for one really appreciate Mark's contributions in general and more specifically those regarding the Searunners and Wharrams, two types of boats that have historically done some of the cheapest cruising out there.
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Old 14-05-2011, 17:32   #1443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko
Regardless, they are not suitable for micro-budget cruising which is the focus of this thread. Please take the discussion elsewhere.

INDY
Where did that come from? One of the very few micro-budget cruisers I know personally built his tri from plywood and has sailed it for decades. Admittedly, there's no standing room on the entire boat, and it's not a vessel I'd feel safe going to sea in, but this fellow makes it work.

Time for the OP to lighten up?
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Old 15-05-2011, 05:50   #1444
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Weight and Balance....

Much earlier, I posted a proforma mass balance for a micro-cruising boat.

This balance covered items such as:

Anchoring Gear
Head
Galley
Saloon
Sails
Windvane
Water
Fuel
Provisions
Spares
Electrical

The total mass can be found between pp 28-36 and is ~ 3000 #


Monohulls between 28-34 ft LOA vary from 5 - 8 tons displacement
Multihulls of this size range vary from 3 - 6 tons displacement.

Adding 3000# to a 6000# multi hull increases the displacement by 50%
and the rigging forces double. This is why multihull sailors speak of water makers, fortress anchors, nylon rodes and the like. Their boats cannot
absorb the weight.

Light boats in a seaway have violent motions compared to monohulls with length displacement ratios > 285. This is where "doing everything from the cockpit" arose.

Light boats frighten their crews when the wind goes to 20 knots and higher. Since the vast majority of winds at sea are in the 20 - 25 knot
regime, such boats are on the edge at sea. This is where 'fast passages are safe passages' comes from.

Multi hull sailors claim their boats are cheaper to build.... compared to what? The Queen Mary? or to one of Benford's Dories?

Multi hull sailors claim that ballast slows everything down.. until they are
caught between Martinique and St. Lucia in a Squall, turn turtle, and sink, as a charter cat did last season. Neither my friends on their whitby 42, nor the island trading vessel could find any survivors...

Ballast rights mono-hulls from capsize, it requires greater displacement, giving larger internal volume BELOW THE WATERLINE, where stores should go. It makes possible sufficient tankage for water, obviating the need for watermakers and making space for the chain needed to keep the boat securely anchored no matter what.

Greater displacement for length gives a boat that has a predictable and smooth motion in seas generated by 20-30 knot winds. Such a boat is kinder to its crew. Sufficient ballast, and firm bilges gives a boat that sails upright, again kinder to its crew.

These items and more were discussed in pp 28-36. I suggest you return there and review.

INDY
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Old 15-05-2011, 06:18   #1445
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Re: Weight and Balance....

Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Much earlier, I posted a proforma mass balance for a micro-cruising boat.

This balance covered items such as:

Anchoring Gear
Head
Galley
Saloon
Sails
Windvane
Water
Fuel
Provisions
Spares
Electrical

The total mass can be found between pp 28-36 and is ~ 3000 #


Monohulls between 28-34 ft LOA vary from 5 - 8 tons displacement
Multihulls of this size range vary from 3 - 6 tons displacement.

Adding 3000# to a 6000# multi hull increases the displacement by 50%
and the rigging forces double. This is why multihull sailors speak of water makers, fortress anchors, nylon rodes and the like. Their boats cannot
absorb the weight.

Light boats in a seaway have violent motions compared to monohulls with length displacement ratios > 285. This is where "doing everything from the cockpit" arose.

Light boats frighten their crews when the wind goes to 20 knots and higher. Since the vast majority of winds at sea are in the 20 - 25 knot
regime, such boats are on the edge at sea. This is where 'fast passages are safe passages' comes from.

Multi hull sailors claim their boats are cheaper to build.... compared to what? The Queen Mary? or to one of Benford's Dories?

Multi hull sailors claim that ballast slows everything down.. until they are
caught between Martinique and St. Lucia in a Squall, turn turtle, and sink, as a charter cat did last season. Neither my friends on their whitby 42, nor the island trading vessel could find any survivors...

Ballast rights mono-hulls from capsize, it requires greater displacement, giving larger internal volume BELOW THE WATERLINE, where stores should go. It makes possible sufficient tankage for water, obviating the need for watermakers and making space for the chain needed to keep the boat securely anchored no matter what.

Greater displacement for length gives a boat that has a predictable and smooth motion in seas generated by 20-30 knot winds. Such a boat is kinder to its crew. Sufficient ballast, and firm bilges gives a boat that sails upright, again kinder to its crew.

These items and more were discussed in pp 28-36. I suggest you return there and review.

INDY
And none of that changes the fact of whether or not I can cruise on $500 per month on my boat.
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Old 15-05-2011, 06:57   #1446
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Re: Weight and Balance....

Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
I suggest you return there and review.

INDY
I think you missed the point several people tried to make or as one of the mods tagline says ..."its not what you say, its how you say it."

Sorry but we are not your students to be ordered back to the material for review.
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Old 15-05-2011, 07:13   #1447
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pirate Re: Weight and Balance....

Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Much earlier, I posted a proforma mass balance for a micro-cruising boat.

This balance covered items such as:

Anchoring Gear
Head
Galley
Saloon
Sails
Windvane
Water
Fuel
Provisions
Spares
Electrical

The total mass can be found between pp 28-36 and is ~ 3000 #


Monohulls between 28-34 ft LOA vary from 5 - 8 tons displacement
Multihulls of this size range vary from 3 - 6 tons displacement.

Adding 3000# to a 6000# multi hull increases the displacement by 50%
and the rigging forces double. This is why multihull sailors speak of water makers, fortress anchors, nylon rodes and the like. Their boats cannot
absorb the weight.
A Tiki 21 recently completed a 34 day crossing from UK to US... no water maker etc....

Light boats in a seaway have violent motions compared to monohulls with length displacement ratios > 285. This is where "doing everything from the cockpit" arose.
I disagree... I have sailed 21's and 26's across the Channel to France and back in winds upto F8... have skimmed past many a 35ft+ mono reefed right down with the crew huddled miserably in the cockpit with full foulies... man.. you cannot beat a wetsuit and windproof for sailing these cats in weather... buy 5 wet suits for the price off one set of Gils/Helly etc...
Light boats frighten their crews when the wind goes to 20 knots and higher. Since the vast majority of winds at sea are in the 20 - 25 knot
regime, such boats are on the edge at sea. This is where 'fast passages are safe passages' comes from.
Folks who freak that easily rarely venture more than 5 miles offshore... as for the rest... its confidence in boat and ability... mono or multi...

Multi hull sailors claim their boats are cheaper to build.... compared to what? The Queen Mary? or to one of Benford's Dories?
My GRP 21ft Corribee would cost 5+ times as much to build today as my old Tiki 21 by a builder... if I built it myself materials would come to around 3700euros.
Look into them... could be a good add one to your Micro-Budget cruising

Multi hull sailors claim that ballast slows everything down.. until they are
caught between Martinique and St. Lucia in a Squall, turn turtle, and sink, as a charter cat did last season. Neither my friends on their whitby 42, nor the island trading vessel could find any survivors...
You've gotta work really hard to flip a Wharram...

Ballast rights mono-hulls from capsize, it requires greater displacement, giving larger internal volume BELOW THE WATERLINE, where stores should go. It makes possible sufficient tankage for water, obviating the need for watermakers and making space for the chain needed to keep the boat securely anchored no matter what.
Face facts... Watermakers are bought by folk way outside the 'BUDGET'... they want endless showers etc... not just drinking water and the occasional solar shower... big difference... I've crossed with as little as 120litres in the past..
As for chain... 20metres on a 21ftr + a 10kg Bruce is no big deal...

Greater displacement for length gives a boat that has a predictable and smooth motion in seas generated by 20-30 knot winds. Such a boat is kinder to its crew. Sufficient ballast, and firm bilges gives a boat that sails upright, again kinder to its crew.
See second response...

These items and more were discussed in pp 28-36. I suggest you return there and review.

INDY
I suggest you review Wharram and similar... then return...
Not being argumentative Goprisko... just saying it how it is... your talking in your 'BOX'.... I'm talking from 'OUTFIELD...'
That being said... you've chucked out some good stuff in the past.. but remember there are Micro Budget Multi's and folks who sail them... really sail them..
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Old 15-05-2011, 07:15   #1448
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

We are getting into a corner of "what is cruising?" and since I would surmise that the vast amount of CF posters are land based they define cruising as going out for a weekend or maybe a week or two in the Bahamas. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion cruising is using a vessel to "go places and see things" be it for a weekend or a decade.
- - For those cruising short term or near distances with limited time, speed is certainly a major factor and here is where multi's shine.
- - For those whose ideas of cruising is a life-time endeavor or at least a significant length of time which normally includes divesting all land based houses and attachments, the choice of vessels is quite different.
- - In this realm, safety, security and the ability of the vessel to take a major beating, storms and downright nasty conditions and keep the cruisers within it alive and safe simply by the very design nature of the vessel.
- - I categorize sailing vessels as 3 different kinds: coastal or day sailors which are fast, nimble and fun to sail. Secondly are the Island boats which are set up for 1000 nm of hop, skipping and jumping down island or around continents keeping their cruisers comfortable and still provide speed and fun on passages. Finally, there are the "green water" boats which are heavy displacement, usually deep draft for their LOA and only want to go straight forward through thick and thin. They are definitely not fast, definitely not nimble, and trying to get one to go any which way other than straight is an exercise in creativity. These vessels ply the oceans for months at a time and provide the means for the cruisers to visit the far flung corners of the earth.
- - Of course, folks have crossed oceans in any and every type of thing that can float, but for the world cruiser stability and strength is desired above all else and is frequently discussed in other sections of CF.
- - I personally envision this particular thread as a source of information for those potential world cruisers or those desiring to leave their land lives behind and take to life on the oceans. As such they are looking for substantial, simple, and rugged small vessels that can take them to their dream destinations with the absolute minimum of cost and trouble.
- - I meet these cruisers all the time in the eastern Caribbean "putting" along under sail at 3 to 4 knots with a leg over the tiller and a good book in their hands. They don't need any fancy chart plotters, autopilots, electrical systems beyond basic communications and required common sense safety items. They live a life and experience their dreams at half the speed I do in my large vessel but at also a fraction of the cost. So this thread for me at least sets out how can you do that for those dreaming of such a life.
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Old 15-05-2011, 07:37   #1449
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pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Orris... this is true but the trap everyone seems to be falling into is allowing their own prejudices/inabilities to drive the thread as to whats possible and whats not... just because you or Goprisko would not contemplate anything less than a 'Greenwater Boat' does not mean that many would prefer different..
Maybe Goprisko and many others are not aware but James Wharram started the Ocean Cruising Cat trend that exists today..
Until he built and crossed the Atlantic on his home built ply cat 'Tangaroa' in the mid fifties no one dreamt that cats could do anything but island hop around Polynesia etc...
Admitedly it sank by the time he and the girls got it got across but the technology did not exist back then in marine plys and epoxies.. the dreaded worm had a feast...
but he thew open the door for people like Catalac, Bobcats, Hirondelle's, Prout etc... followed later by the more timid & conservative in other lands...

Maybe this should be added to the 'Books onboard' list...
Two Girls Two Catamarans






Written by James Wharram. A tale of adventure in the fifties, when James Wharram and two German girls, Ruth and Jutta, sailed from Falmouth in their homemade catamaran TANGAROA. The story of their stormy crossing of the Bay of Biscay, their winter in northern Spain living off the proceeds of magazine articles, and the dangers encountered in their unusually rough trade wind passage to Trinidad.
In Trinidad, they first built a house raft out of bamboo and then built the 40ft catamaran Rongo, sailed her to New York and then across the North Atlantic back to Britain (the first catamaran successfully to do so). The book makes fascinating and compelling reading. A classic.
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Old 15-05-2011, 07:50   #1450
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

I think there's at least a few long-term cruisers who go in smaller boats that don't fit into these strict guidelines. It's fair to say that since a family of 4 can cruise the world (on less than $500/mo) in a Cal-25, then it's certainly just as doable in a lightweight multi-hull.

It might not be ideal... but thats kinda the whole point of being on a super tight budget, pretty much NOTHING is IDEAL. You take what you can get and you make it work.

Personally I think talk of building any type of boat simply doesn't fit into a $500 a month working income, unless you spend many years doing it.. These days you can pick up a good used boat for a few grand, fix it up for a few more, and go cruising ALL for a fraction of the cost of building anything. Not to mention (as it has been mentioned already) the problem of having all the tools and space to build in... I don't know anybody that lives on $500 (relative) a month and owns land or a house and has the freedom to build a boat.

So obviously there is large discrepancy between cruising on a budget AFTER you spend all your money on a boat (of any type), and BECOMING a cruiser when you are already living on this same tight budget.
Knowing that this discrepancy exists means it should be pretty easy to understand how some people in expensive multi-hulls are capable of cruising on $500 a month even though their boat may have been more expensive and unsuitable for budget cruising.

It's no different than somebody building a nice heavy 32 foot mono-hull in their backyard. They too, have spent far more moneys on their boat than any reasonable budget cruiser would have spent on a fixer upper.

It seems to me that the majority of serious budget cruisers that I've read or heard about, are all doing it on "unsuitable" boats of some form or fashion. It's kinda the whole point...
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Old 15-05-2011, 07:59   #1451
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pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
I think there's at least a few long-term cruisers who go in smaller boats that don't fit into these strict guidelines. It's fair to say that since a family of 4 can cruise the world (on less than $500/mo) in a Cal-25, then it's certainly just as doable in a lightweight multi-hull.

It might not be ideal... but thats kinda the whole point of being on a super tight budget, pretty much NOTHING is IDEAL. You take what you can get and you make it work.

Personally I think talk of building any type of boat simply doesn't fit into a $500 a month working income, unless you spend many years doing it.. These days you can pick up a good used boat for a few grand, fix it up for a few more, and go cruising ALL for a fraction of the cost of building anything. Not to mention (as it has been mentioned already) the problem of having all the tools and space to build in... I don't know anybody that lives on $500 (relative) a month and owns land or a house and has the freedom to build a boat.

So obviously there is large discrepancy between cruising on a budget AFTER you spend all your money on a boat (of any type), and BECOMING a cruiser when you are already living on this same tight budget.
Knowing that this discrepancy exists means it should be pretty easy to understand how some people in expensive multi-hulls are capable of cruising on $500 a month even though their boat may have been more expensive and unsuitable for budget cruising.

It's no different than somebody building a nice heavy 32 foot mono-hull in their backyard. They too, have spent far more moneys on their boat than any reasonable budget cruiser would have spent on a fixer upper.

It seems to me that the majority of serious budget cruisers that I've read or heard about, are all doing it on "unsuitable" boats of some form or fashion. It's kinda the whole point...
MeThinks I see dawn on the horizon....
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Old 15-05-2011, 08:38   #1452
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post

Maybe this should be added to the 'Books onboard' list...

Two Girls Two Catamarans






Written by James Wharram. A tale of adventure in the fifties, when James Wharram and two German girls, Ruth and Jutta, sailed from Falmouth in their homemade catamaran TANGAROA. The story of their stormy crossing of the Bay of Biscay, their winter in northern Spain living off the proceeds of magazine articles, and the dangers encountered in their unusually rough trade wind passage to Trinidad.
In Trinidad, they first built a house raft out of bamboo and then built the 40ft catamaran Rongo, sailed her to New York and then across the North Atlantic back to Britain (the first catamaran successfully to do so). The book makes fascinating and compelling reading. A classic.
A classic indeed! One of my favorite parts is while in Trinidad he meets another sailor named Bernard Moitessier who ends up helping him build Rongo.
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Old 15-05-2011, 09:29   #1453
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Design Choices.....

Seems, I've stirred up quite a pot... GOOD!

We are now back to things that matter... the Basics..

A Wharram 36, is a suitable size for a micro-budget boat.

To make one you build:
2 Keels
2 Stems
2 Horn timbers
4 garboards
4 topsides
2 sets of deck beams
2 decks
4 glu lam beams to tie the hulls together and support the bridge deck
1 bridge deck
2 masts
2 sets of rigging
2 rudders
1 engine pod if fitting an engine

After all this you get 2 poorly ventilated cabins the size of a pup tent and
a deck cuddy the size of a pup tent.

You avoid pouring a ballast keel.

If you build Eric or the SC 31 or LapWing, or the Roberts 35 you build
1 keel
1 stem
1 horn piece
1 keel box
1 canoe bodied hull
1 set deck beams
1 deck
1 deck house
1 keel tank for cooling the engine and fridge
1 ballast tank for holding the lead which you pour into it molten (wheel weights you scrounged from tire shops)
1 mast
1 set standing rigging

You get a galley suitable for serious cooking
A nav station
A saloon with seating for 6 , book shelves for 100 books,
200 gal of water
100 gal of fuel
2 - 30 # LPG tanks
A keel cooled engine with dry exhaust, which means you don't have a raw water pump, an impeller, zincs, heat exchanger, worries regarding water backing over the riser into the engine.
A keel cooled fridge, which means you don't have corrosion problems, or a coolant pump
Maurice Griffiths double coaming box hatches which you can leave open in any weather
2 Dorades in each section of the boat, so you have ventilation in gales
A chameleon dink in chocks on the house.
Sufficient bouyancy in the forward part of the boat for all chain rode, robust anchors, surge line, and a self stowing chain locker so you can anchor effortlessly and know next morning you will be in the same place you dropped upon the previous night.

INDY
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Old 15-05-2011, 09:50   #1454
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Safe Passage Making...

Making safe passages is not a function of boat speed....

Making safe passages is directly related to understanding weather systems, and getting the info necessary to be in the right place at the right time.

To understand weather systems along your route, you begin with the pilot charts. They give the prevailing winds for each month of the year, including frequencies of gales and calms. Used intelligently, their info enables you to choose an appropriate route and time of year for the passage.

To refine the timing of your passage, nothing beats the GRIB files. Available for free from SailDocs, and giving pressure and wind up to 200 hours ahead, these show the effect of weather systems. If these are not available, the Offshore Forecasts from NMN (Chesapeake) or NMG(New Orleans ) or the met offices of other maritime countries will do.

To receive these, you need an HF (SSB) receiver. To need these, you must be planning an offshore voyage, including one via Hispanola from the Bahamas to the West Indies. Such receivers come in all flavors from the Grundig at $ 150 @ Radio Shack to the ICOM 803 costing $3000. The Grundig runs on its own batteries (D cells). the others need 12 VDC from the ship's electrical system ( yes, this also costs )

If you go for the SSB tranceiver, whether HAM or MARINE, you raise your operating costs, significantly. You can then download the GRIB files via PACTOR - III, which assists routing. BUT YOU CAN DO WITHOUT THIS!

Instead you can visit internet cafes at each port and download the GRIBs while there, and analyze them there to choose the time to go and the first 8 days expected weather enroute.

In places such as the west South Pacific, dedicated amateurs provide weather routing for yachts. Herb on SouthBound II does this for the Atlantic, Alistair does this for South Africa. You can listen in and get their forecasts and recommendations with the Grundig, or call them with the Tranceiver.

Regardless, you need a yacht that can press on in 20 knots of wind and sea states of 2 - 4 m, for that is what you will find 90% of the time.

This specifically means that your full working rig should be good for 15-20 Knots. That in light winds you will set large nylon sails (drifter, Asymetric). In heavier winds you will hand the Yankee and reef the main.

You should be able to sail in winds up to 35 knots.

One place monohulls outshine multihulls is to weather. LapWing can tack through 80 degrees. Pegasus tacks through 100 degrees, most multis tack through 130 degrees. This means a good sailing mono will be able to sail upwind through a channel to the anchorage, while the multi must use her engine. Given the cost of fuel, this is critical.

INDY
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Old 15-05-2011, 09:55   #1455
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pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

I like pup tents.... you guys obviously have pretty small ones in the States....
James Wharram Catamarans - Photo albums.

Personally I'd go 30ft for long term cruising... but something tells me I'm wasting my time on here... there's none so blind as those who will not see....
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