Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

[goprisko]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Indy, when you say "salvagable" I'm reading that to mean you keep the shiny parts and toss out the rest. Coming back to the BUDGETing part of this thread, what do you figure the cost of obtaining (trucking, home deliveyr, whatever) the hull is? And the cost of disposing of the hull? And have you considered, in many parts of the US you'd have to dispose of it as hazmat, not just tip it at your local dump?

I'm curious to look at the more complete dollar figure for buying those shiny parts--with a couple of tons of scrap attached to them.

All good points....

Which means you don't truck the hull.... You pull the rig, the winches, the WC, the engine, gearbox, stuffing box, galley sink, cooker, galley pump, light fixtures, nav lights, etc. Once you have the hull stripped, you chain saw it into pieces, looking for the lead ballast, which you break into reasonable sized pieces for use in the new boat. The remains go into a dumpster, as wrecking waste.

The payoff:

Mast, boom, spreaders suitable for the new boat
Winches ditto
Stanchions, pulpits
Rigging screws
Propellor
Shaft
Engine & gearbox
cooker
WC
Ballast

The expense

Hiring a dumpster to receive the broken up hull.

INDY

[goprisko]

An earler poster, Alf I believe stated
"The good ol' days are over and I definetely don't see the point why we should add the disadvantages of that time to the ones of ours. The cruisingcruiser on the market than tiny, heavy and slow long keelers with expensive conventional riggings... community has grown easily by a factor of 1000 since Hiscocks days. The boats on the market have changed as well and there are much more interesting boats and designs to the low budget
"

From my experience, the good old days are now.....!!!! Yes, NOW!!!

Going forward, things are going to worsen... due to Peak Oil.

If you read Eric's books, Roth's books, Smeeton's books, George Day's book, Slocum's book, Pardey's books, Robinson's book, and others you will find that they prized performance under sail, and their boats in no way match the description given above.

Regarding long keel boats, they are most certainly more practical for cruising than fin keel spade rudder boats because they can be simply put on a marine rail car, dried out against a pier, and have deep bilges which keep bilge water below the accomodation. The insane quest for speed is little more than bragging over momentary extreme speeds. The reality is a boat of 28-34 ft LOA must displace 5-8 tons to carry the necessary equipment, and consequently will have a displacement / length ratio much higher than an ULDB sled... Such a boat will do 6 knots effortlessly and log 120 mile days for days on end. She will be seakindly, and take care of her crew. She will have a hull that is overbuilt by modern standards, and capable of taking a pounding and surviving, unlike her modern cousins. To the guy who must depend on her, she will prove good value.

INDY

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by goprisko

For our example, we have budgeted $ 40,000 for the boat, complete and ready for sea. We will build in aluminum, ordering 3500# of material in one go. We will do the hull as a presto sharpie, to eliminate the $10k design fee. This can work for us because we bought skene's and did our research on presto sharpies, including Chapell's "American Small Sailing Craft".

The presto sharpie hull approximates Lapwing's design, with somewhat firmer bilges, and we have chosen to go with a radius chine design too. Were we somewhat in a hurry we could choose a multi-chine version such as that used by Ovni of France, however this would cost us lots of storage space in the interior.

We have the following major expenses:
Welding machine______________________$1200
Argon gas___________________________$450
Welding wire_________________________$ 250
Acetone_____________________________$200
9" grinder____________________________$100
Skilsaw______________________________$200
Tablesaw____________________________$500
Router______________________________$200
Drillpress____________________________$125
Jointer______________________________$500
1/2" drill_____________________________$150
3/8" drill_____________________________$100
Hand tools__________________________$1000
Aluminum 3500#_____________________$7000
Butternut for ceiling 400 bd ft__________$800
WC________________________________$ 120
Electrical panel_______________________$ 80
Navigation Lights (LED)_______________$500
Cabin lamps (4 LED)__________________$200
Engle fridge (60 qt)__________________$1200
Cherry for furniture 500 bd ft__________$1000
Teak for trim and accent 200 bd ft_____$2000
Sails (used from Bacon)______________$ 3000
Solar Panels 200 watts_______________$ 400
Chameleon dinghy___________________$ 500
12 1/2" bronze rigging screws_________$1200
24 closed bronze capels______________$600
300 ft of 1X19 1/4" SS wire rope______$1000
400ft of 7/16 yacht braid_____________$550
Navigation tools_____________________$200
Sextant___________________________$400
Charts____________________________$2400
Pubs______________________________$200
Pilots_____________________________$1000
Epoxy paint 10 gals__________________$2500
Antifouling paint 2 gal________________$500
TBS decking________________________$ 500
Polycarbonate for hatches____________$200
Tempered glass for hull windows_______$200
Lead ballast(scrounged wheel weights__$1400
Cooker 2 burner with oven____________$1000
Sink______________________________$ 100
Plumbing___________________________$300
Traveler___________________________$200
Mast and boom_____________________$5000
Anchors, chain, and pawl_____________$1600
Winches 2 halyard, 2 primaries, 2 secondaries $4000
Master Welder 100 hours @ $25 = $ 2,500
TOTAL $ 60,000
LESS: Trade Discount $20,000 (obtained by getting a sales tax ID)
NET: $ 40,000

We will budget 24 months for the project. We will need $ 1600 per month to finance the project. To complete the project and have $ 15,000 in the cruising kitty we must set aside $2400/ month

Note: an engine has not been included in this analysis because it is assumed one will not be installed.

Look at the above list again... the cost of the project before trade discounts is $ 60k, of that $ 7K is the aluminum and $3.5K is welding.

Can these numbers be reduced? Yes, if salvaged items are used.

Before you go to the scrap yard, a caution. Buying used items like winches and cookers is a mixed savings. If the item no longer has parts available, it is not worth bothering with. Remember, you are building your future, this boat is to carry you into the future. Use your trade discount mercilessly, save money there.

INDY

Indy,
I built three boats and got a substantial trade discount as well, as I was always a boatbuilder, either as vocation, or avocation. (These three projects were, a 23' cat, a 28' tri, and a 34' tri, and took me 21 years between them.) The first two boat projects were single handed, the last one was with my wife.

I don't know if this is useful or not, but...

I like your choice to build in aluminum. If I were to switch to monohulls, that would be my first choice. I would however use a stock design that was well proven, and with hundreds of copies out there, so you'ld know EXACTLY what you will end up with. Plans for a commonly available stock design are relatively cheap.

Also... unless you have a building crew, I think two years build time is unrealistic for one person. Also...The numbers that you have listed (cost), seem low by as much as 50%, on many large items, and there are literally thousands of cost that don't get added in, because they are so small that they don't seem worth adding up. They do add up, however! At least the above was true for me...

When people asked me how much time it took to build a boat, I'd say: "Until it's done"! When they'd ask how much it cost, I'd say: "All that you've got"!

You may be much better than me at pre-figuring the time and money, and I would never suggest that you can't do it, but I have been wrong by such a large margin on both counts, that I suggest to other boatbuilders, that they not set rigid goals, other than the above generalities, and just go work on it EVERY day, until it is done, or you need to stop until more money comes in.

There is a joke among my boatbuilder friends: A Professional boatbuilder won the 10 million dollar lottery. He was asked in an interview: "What will you do now"? To which he responded: "I don't know, I guess I'll keep building boats until I go broke".

Building a boat is like building 10 houses! I've done both, and along with my wife, and one part time worker, the house only took one year!

Best of luck with it, I admire your gumption. It is a special pursuit that transcends being "just a way to get a boat". It is what men do because they can't give birth!

Mark

[kenny chaos]

Two questions;
-What's the mark-up on a new boat?
-How much investment in time to gain the experience to build a cruiser?

[downunder]

Originally Posted by goprisko

This thread is about FRUGALITY. FRUGAL IS CHEAP. FRUGAL means using a $25/ yr dink instead of a $750/yr dink. BECAUSE the frugal guy wants to use the $725/yr on something else.

If this doesn't make sense to you, perhaps you might hang out at the "Cruising on $2000/month" thread, where such folks live rather than on this "Micro-budget Cruising" thread.

INDY

Hey,

Differing ideas and discussion are all valid and proof of concept so don't blow someone off for a different viewpoint.

I and others may be looking at a different budget but i think everyones views may be valid and any and all experience and discussion on all budgets is great infomation for someone intending to go cruising.

For an older person dive photography and fishing (my reason for cruising) doing so out of a small rowboat without motor could be considered dangerous. Hell I have done plenty of dangerous things in the water in my youth but I would consider it irresponsible to do the same thesedays as a singlehander. Like cruising without EPIRP, lifejackets and lifelines. As we get older one understands and needs to respect their limitations when diving.

Good skill for a budget cruiser being a skilled diver generally gains more anchors than they lose (none). Also adds to menu considerably.

cheers for the good information and divergence of views.

[MichaelC]

Kenny Chaos. - I have built a number of boats, from 8' pram [Nutshell] to a 35 ft aluminum gaff schooner [with lots of help welding up this hull]. I have laid out a program for others several times. You start by building a pram, then a slightly larger skiff, then a V bottom overnighter, then [depending on how well the others turned out] you might even start your big one. Here is the interesting part. You will probably keep the pram for your dinghy. The skiff and the overnighter you can sell for your materials cost plus about 30%, realistically. BUT - you will save the time and money invested so far in the construction of your ultimate boat. Even thought you take a couple of years of free time to do this, you will save it in the long run. At this point, however, it would be faster, and cost about the same to buy one of the used ones discussed on this thread. For me, I can't get what I want on the used market. Never have seen anything close. And I am spoiled rotten. Especially the rotten part. So I build my own. My current boat will come in so cheap nobody on this site would believe it. That is almost completely due to the experience of building other boats. One more point: The successful home builders who build nice boats [probaby NOT yachts ...] love the building process. Love the process. I do.

[garymcg]

Originally Posted by kenny chaos

Here's an obvious statement for ya; I bet there's many more people interested
in low budget cruising than high budget cruising. Anybody ever sell a book
called 'how to sail on a lot of money?'

Steve Dashew has written several very popular books on that subject.

[VirtualVagabond]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

).

FWIW, today I came up with a way of selling Common Sense - in a bottle not as easy to do as it first sounds, as I had to invent...........Common Sense (think about it ). Be a while before I can bring it to market, so in the spirit of sharing I mention it for others to also commercialise............

You're obviously having to buy it in!!! ROFL....
Sorry Davo, couldn't resist that one

But you should be on a winner there.... it's so goddamn rare!

Vic

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by kenny chaos

Two questions;
-What's the mark-up on a new boat?
-How much investment in time to gain the experience to build a cruiser?

Like the old sags.

- if you have to ask..................

- all that you have.

[Skylark]

One of the main reasons that some people cannot cruise on $500 a month is alcohol.

[sctpc]

Originally Posted by Skylark

One of the main reasons that some people cannot cruise on $500 a month is alcohol.

you must be kidding no one would include alcohol in the 500 pm its $60 a slab in the AU that makes it 500 just on piss.

[CaptainAlf]

Originally Posted by goprisko

Again, I'd like to bring the discussion back to topic.

I have seen a lot of dinks in my 20 years traveling the world, and all the RIBs have large motors on them, and spend a lot of time zooming everywhere. That is fine, but it is not cheap.

This thread is about FRUGALITY. FRUGAL IS CHEAP. FRUGAL means using a $25/ yr dink instead of a $750/yr dink. BECAUSE the frugal guy wants to use the $725/yr on something else.

If this doesn't make sense to you, perhaps you might hang out at the "Cruising on $2000/month" thread, where such folks live rather than on this "Micro-budget Cruising" thread.

INDY

Sorry mate, but I seriousely doubt that you ever did any micro budget cruising yourself. You're preaching water and drinking wine, just have a look at your own boat.
You're telling people to build Chameleon and how fast and cheap to build that is, showing thumb nails of your own project. This is completely misleading. I earned money with GRP, plywood and epoxy jobs and shifted to taking passengers because the work is dirty, itchy and very unhealthy, except you're wearing all the protective gear which is a pain in the *** in tropical climates. The finish you're showing off will be difficult to achieve by a professional in a week full time work, not to talk about someone who does not do this kind of work on a daily basis.
How do you dream up those figures about the prices for a RIB? 6000$ and 750$/year? That's about as far off as your calculations about building boats, only in the other direction.

Then you're trying to convince people to build those wonderful 30footers.
Have you ever lived long term on such a small boat? Probably not, but you're trying to convince people to waste years of their lives and all their savings to build something which has a resale value below the price of the material. That Lapwing project is just frugality for the rich. Only the materials amount already to the price I've paid for my 40footer, not to mention, that in the price for Freedom Fargo was an almost new (300h) Yanmar 4JH2E included.
And even someone who has spent obviousely copious amounts of money on cruising should know that it's saving on the wrong end to buy used sails - in the quotation for the Lapwing project there are used sails in while you're warning of buying equipment with an almost infinite life span second hand.
When i fitted out Freedom Fargo for single handed long term cruising I bought two additional self tailing winches second hand for 80$ each. They are still working fine 10 years later and I expect easily another 10 years.

Like already someone else mentioned: Men are building boats because they can't give birth!

Starting cruising with building your own boat is very dangerous and is ending very often in a desaster. How should you know, if you are the person to life long term in such a confined space? Or, perhaps you end up with double the space you actually expected but don't like it any more, since before you devorced, you didn't really think about single handed sailing (There is a considerable amount of marriages being devorced during building projects)
I do not say that building a boat does not make sense at all, but you should have at least a couple of years cruising experience to know what really suits you and not what other people dream up what's right for you based on outdated literature, which is not even their own experience.

A good friend of mine built a IMHO very reasonable low budget long term cruising boat in NZ. He started after living 7 years on the 50 years old 31f wooden boat he started cruising with from Germany in 1999.

It's a 46f Wharram Catamaran with a crab claw rig. Have a look at the building process, there are a lot of great details in how to get a decent boat for little money.
tiki 46 wakataitea project - Wharram Builders and Friends

And a link to their journey in 2010. That's how low budget cruising can be in the 21st century for people who have some conscience:
2010, on the way to remote places - Wharram Builders and Friends

INDY, I slowly get the impression that you're not posting to give some information but just to be right. I would suggest that you hang out with likeminded people on the 2000$/month thread, perhaps with a contribution like "How to reduce your 2000$ budget to 1500$ leading a miserable life style".
Cheers

Alf

[VirtualVagabond]

And in the red corner........

[w1651]

Let's Get Ready to RummmmmmmmmBllllllllllll !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the Blue corner a man that insists he knows building. In the Red corner another builder of fine yachts.

Really! Guys! can't we all get along?

I don't know about anyone else but I have gotten some really good advice and knowledge from both of you guys. I appreciate everything posted by you both so much so that I am on a five year plan to go cruising.
I won't be able to do it on a 40ft Nickolson but my newly purchased Contest 33 is all I need. Remember I am single handling so I don't need a lot of comfort. The only comfort I am looking for is my bed.
Gadgets go as far as a sextant and a hand held vhf. Maybe a SSB if I can get one on the cheap. I have a lot of upgrades as well as simplifying to do but I realize I will learn my boat this way.
So let's put down the gloves and realize this is what works for me. It may not for you and if I or anyone else is unrealistic we can have a very good, smart, conversation about our different viewpoints on the subject.
Like I said you guys are great and a really good source of information.

Gonna take the old girl out for the first time this weekend. Wish me and her luck.

[SaucySailoress]

Ding-a-ling... Back to your corners!

Did I hear somewhere (or perhaps I read it) on CF a request for us all to play nicely?