Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 10 votes, 4.10 average. Display Modes
Old 28-02-2011, 01:59   #1126
Registered User
 
Doodles's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Virginia, USA & Krabi, Thailand
Boat: Wauquiez Pretorien 35; Nordica 16
Posts: 2,810
Images: 1
Re: Cruising on $500 per Month....

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
only if you'll send me $121 if I haven't

And to be clear, I do actually share you're opinion. The issue is not having the immediate finances to afford such an opinion. I have a need for a proper dingy, but not the means, so a median must be met....
This reminds me of the adage about buying things .... you can only get two out of three (good - fast - cheap). So, your dink will be fast (that is you get it NOW) and it will be cheap, but it won't be a "good" one. And if it were a "good" one and you were to get it now, it wouldn't be "cheap" or within your budget. Get it?
__________________

__________________
Mundis Ex Igne Factus Est
Doodles is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 05:00   #1127
Registered User
 
callmecrazy's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Boat: Tartan 30
Posts: 1,548
Images: 1
Re: Cruising on $500 per Month....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
This reminds me of the adage about buying things .... you can only get two out of three (good - fast - cheap). So, your dink will be fast (that is you get it NOW) and it will be cheap, but it won't be a "good" one. And if it were a "good" one and you were to get it now, it wouldn't be "cheap" or within your budget. Get it?
precisely! It's a balancing act.
the important thing is to try and not fall victim to false economy. But a bit of proper research, some forward thinking, and maybe a little meditation over a few beers , and it becomes easier to put all your stars into proper alignment
__________________

__________________
My Blog
callmecrazy is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 06:33   #1128
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Koh Tao, Thailand
Boat: Freedom 40
Posts: 25
pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month....

Hey callmecrazy, of course if you're broke and you need something to get to your boat even the lid of an ice cooler is better than nothing (no joke, seen it 4 month ago in Chumphon river). As for the rubber inflatable - just make sure not to leave anything inside when it's blowing - I was using one in the carrebean which I had stowed away for emergencies after another one of my 100$ "proper 2nd hand inflatables" was beyond repair and almost sunk including engine. I rowed over to a friends boat, tied it up and opened a beer, when it suddenly became air borne like a kite.
The beer was pretty warm until I came back after salvaging the oars and the dry bag left inside.

Ok, let me continue tips and tricks for low budget sailors. Since we are already talking about the tender...

3. Probably the most economic solution is a GRP one. Good to row, fast with an engine and easy to repair as long you have a clue about epoxy and glassfiber. If you find someone who has a mould, building one is the cheapest solution for a long lasting and good tender.
Still, not my cup or tea - useless for diving, difficult to get into from the water and prone to do damage to the 2component spray paint on my boat or even worse to the shiny hull of that fortunate guys brand new yacht who wanted to give me that well paid easy pisi maintenance job.
After my rather desastrous experiences with getting second hand super cheap inflatables I took the oppotunity to get a new one for a good price in Curacao in 2001. I bought a RIB, a Carib MVP Light 10 for 1260$. I decided for the light because it weighs only 56 kg, light enough to hoist it on deck by myself in not more than 5 min.
Right now it's slowly getting beyond repair, but hey, 10 years daily use makes 126$ per year and if my newest idea about repairing it works I will get another year or two out of it.
Admittedly, I hardly ever rowed it, rather the opposite: I'm running it with a 15 hp which is surely not the most economic engine. Sometimes the fun factor is just too important to me.
To convince myself to spend all that money I took into consideration that a life raft is pretty expensive and with a proper 3 chamber RIB I'm almost as well of.
A few things to know and consider when buying an inflatable:
If you're going to the tropics the only material that lasts is Hypaloon! In those days the yacht line of Zodiac was all Polyester, the worst crap on the planet (huge blisters, opening seems etc.).
If you get a small foldable one, don't get one with a flat bottom but with an inflatable keel. Huge difference when rowing or under engine.
The best value you will get in the carrebean. Carib and AB are formidable RIBs. As soon you're leaving the carrebean going west, there is a huge gap where is nothing to get for reasonable prices until NZ and OZ. And there you get Aquapro with a much lower bow and smaller tube diameter, meaning you get soaked when driving against the wind while I stay dry in my old Carib.
Last but not least a chance to learn from my mistakes: Cover it up! I would have gotten at least 3 to 4 years more out of my Carib if I would have done that - the biggest problem are tiny pin holes in the worn surface.

Ok, that's it for today, perhaps next time about one of the biggest cost factors: The rigging?!

Cheers

Alf
__________________
CaptainAlf is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 06:55   #1129
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,222
Images: 2
pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month....

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainAlf View Post
Ok, let me continue tips and tricks for low budget sailors. Since we are already talking about the tender...
Last but not least a chance to learn from my mistakes: Cover it up! I would have gotten at least 3 to 4 years more out of my Carib if I would have done that - the biggest problem are tiny pin holes in the worn surface.
Cheers
Alf
There's a rubberised paint you can get for that... should give you a few more years...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now  
Old 28-02-2011, 07:23   #1130
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Dinghies

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
I was planning on getting this rope ladder and this rubber raft to use for a dinghy

I figure if the dingy lasts 1 year. I could replace it every year for the next 8 years before I spent the same on a west marine inflatable that wouldn't last 8 years anyway But honestly, I suspect it will last more than a year.

I ran across a fiberglass rowing dink for $100 last year, but couldn't buy it at the time since I had nowhere to put and no boat yet. But if I ever run across that deal again, I'll be sure to snatch it up.
As mentioned earlier, outfitting on a shoestring requires taking bargains when found.

However, all is not lost.

All you need to do is build Chameleon. Designed by Danny Green, built in tortured plywood via stitch and glue, Chameleon has been built at marinas, in garages on porches.

I covered Chameleon on pp 28-36, but given the timeliness of this topic, repeat them here.

INDY
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Building GECKO-1.jpg
Views:	134
Size:	123.8 KB
ID:	24316   Click image for larger version

Name:	Building GECKO-2.jpg
Views:	135
Size:	57.1 KB
ID:	24317  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Building GECKO-3.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	58.0 KB
ID:	24318   Click image for larger version

Name:	Building GECKO-4.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	61.8 KB
ID:	24319  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Building GECKO-5.jpg
Views:	123
Size:	85.3 KB
ID:	24320   Click image for larger version

Name:	chameleon-1.jpg
Views:	120
Size:	122.1 KB
ID:	24321  

__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 07:25   #1131
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Chameleon

A few more pix...

Danny provides full size templates for those in a hurry

INDY
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	chameleon-2.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	119.2 KB
ID:	24322   Click image for larger version

Name:	chameleon-3.jpg
Views:	98
Size:	85.9 KB
ID:	24323  

Click image for larger version

Name:	chameleon-4.jpg
Views:	101
Size:	100.1 KB
ID:	24324   Click image for larger version

Name:	chameleon-5.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	30.0 KB
ID:	24325  

__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 07:28   #1132
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
oars

A hard dink can be efficiently propelled by a pair of oars. Should you wish to
make your own, I'll get and post the plan for a set of Pete Culler oars..

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 07:33   #1133
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Dinghies

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainAlf View Post
Hey callmecrazy, of course if you're broke and you need something to get to your boat even the lid of an ice cooler is better than nothing (no joke, seen it 4 month ago in Chumphon river). As for the rubber inflatable - just make sure not to leave anything inside when it's blowing - I was using one in the carrebean which I had stowed away for emergencies after another one of my 100$ "proper 2nd hand inflatables" was beyond repair and almost sunk including engine. I rowed over to a friends boat, tied it up and opened a beer, when it suddenly became air borne like a kite.
The beer was pretty warm until I came back after salvaging the oars and the dry bag left inside.

Ok, let me continue tips and tricks for low budget sailors. Since we are already talking about the tender...

3. Probably the most economic solution is a GRP one. Good to row, fast with an engine and easy to repair as long you have a clue about epoxy and glassfiber. If you find someone who has a mould, building one is the cheapest solution for a long lasting and good tender.
Still, not my cup or tea - useless for diving, difficult to get into from the water and prone to do damage to the 2component spray paint on my boat or even worse to the shiny hull of that fortunate guys brand new yacht who wanted to give me that well paid easy pisi maintenance job.
After my rather desastrous experiences with getting second hand super cheap inflatables I took the oppotunity to get a new one for a good price in Curacao in 2001. I bought a RIB, a Carib MVP Light 10 for 1260$. I decided for the light because it weighs only 56 kg, light enough to hoist it on deck by myself in not more than 5 min.
Right now it's slowly getting beyond repair, but hey, 10 years daily use makes 126$ per year and if my newest idea about repairing it works I will get another year or two out of it.
Admittedly, I hardly ever rowed it, rather the opposite: I'm running it with a 15 hp which is surely not the most economic engine. Sometimes the fun factor is just too important to me.
To convince myself to spend all that money I took into consideration that a life raft is pretty expensive and with a proper 3 chamber RIB I'm almost as well of.
A few things to know and consider when buying an inflatable:
If you're going to the tropics the only material that lasts is Hypaloon! In those days the yacht line of Zodiac was all Polyester, the worst crap on the planet (huge blisters, opening seems etc.).
If you get a small foldable one, don't get one with a flat bottom but with an inflatable keel. Huge difference when rowing or under engine.
The best value you will get in the carrebean. Carib and AB are formidable RIBs. As soon you're leaving the carrebean going west, there is a huge gap where is nothing to get for reasonable prices until NZ and OZ. And there you get Aquapro with a much lower bow and smaller tube diameter, meaning you get soaked when driving against the wind while I stay dry in my old Carib.
Last but not least a chance to learn from my mistakes: Cover it up! I would have gotten at least 3 to 4 years more out of my Carib if I would have done that - the biggest problem are tiny pin holes in the worn surface.

Ok, that's it for today, perhaps next time about one of the biggest cost factors: The rigging?!

Cheers

Alf
Inflatables are not the dink of choice for the micro-budget cruiser. They do not last long, are expensive, must be propelled by an outboard in all but the calmest of conditions, do not tow well, cannot be sailed, and are stolen regularly and often.

Kevin, the Pardeys, Hiscocks, and myself all use or used hard dinks.

My dink is a modified whitehall rowing boat 11.5 ft long with a GRP hull. I built it the winter before starting Pegasus, in my work shop. That was in 1986. I took cruises in it while the big boat was building. It is still going strong, despite two wrecks which damaged it, necessitating repairs.

The simplest and cheapest and fastest dink to build is a stitch and glue dink, like Chameleon., mentioned above.

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 07:38   #1134
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Re: Cruising on $500 per Month....

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
I know it sounds crazy, and believe me when I say I've heard it all before. But as usual, I wonder if anybody that has actually used this particular boat, would say the same thing. I've used this boat, same brand, same model, to go down 10 miles of rocky river 3 different times one summer not too long ago (and I believe it went down a few more times without me that same summer, who knows how many times the summer after that)... Believe me, its not one of those 'toy' inflatables made out of single layer vinyl and it's not even as cheap as those sevylor fishing rafts.... These things are made with the same PVC material your typical west marine raft uses. It's very rigid, and a very tough multi-layer construction. All three times on that river we were literally scraping along jagged rocks for hundreds of yards at times, with narry a leak... So I wonder how that compares to coming along side a dock or bouncing onto a soft beach once or twice a day... I suspect it will succumb to UV deterioration, or maybe a sharp object type of puncture, long before it simply dies from regular usage.

But of course, I could be wrong since my experience is so limited I'll certainly be keeping a sharp eye out for a good deal on a real dink, like the $100 fiberglass one I mentioned.

West Marine Dinghy $750 - "Dual inflation chambers are covered with PVC-coated, 1100-decitex polyester fabric with strong, heat-welded seams."

Intex 'marine' inflatable $120 - "Two outer layers of heavy-gauge PVC are laminated to an inner layer of polyester mesh (1000 Denier)." and that is 3 inflation chambers and heat welded seams as well.

I'll let you know how it's going after a few months
I'll repeat, the simplest, cheapest dink is a stitch and glue dink made of tortured ply. You can put it together in a week or two, it will cost whatever 2 sheets of ply, and a gallon of resin, and 50 ft of GRP tape, and a roll of copper wire, and a clear pine 2X6 cost. You rip the pine plank to make gunwales.

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 07:42   #1135
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Re: Cruising on $500 per Month....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Furlers can be cheap and simpler than a set of hanks with fewer moving parts . I built mine for around $80 worth of materials. I've used it for 26 years and several Pacific crosings with no problems.
Not having to go on the foredeck is a huge safety factor.
The wear and tear they save on sails can pay for them quickly.
I have reused hanks from the original set of sails, bought 21 years ago. Along the way, I replaced about 12 with those of a larger size. You must go to the mast to set sail. Given a cutter rig, manage it like Larry Pardey suggests, using downhauls.

Hank on sails set much better than those on a roller. I have seen too many roller jibs torn after coming loose in high winds and nearly wrecking their boats.

Micro-budget cruisers must keep their boats simple, they must substitute ingenuity and brawn for expensive convenience items.

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 07:51   #1136
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,222
Images: 2
pirate Re: Cruising on $500 per Month....

Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
I have reused hanks from the original set of sails, bought 21 years ago. Along the way, I replaced about 12 with those of a larger size. You must go to the mast to set sail. Given a cutter rig, manage it like Larry Pardey suggests, using downhauls.

Hank on sails set much better than those on a roller. I have seen too many roller jibs torn after coming loose in high winds and nearly wrecking their boats.

Thats down more to careless owners than flaw of system... if you dont roll and secure it well you derserve what happens.. bit like anchoring...

Micro-budget cruisers must keep their boats simple, they must substitute ingenuity and brawn for expensive convenience items.

INDY
Indy... on some things I feel we must agree to 'Disagree'....
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now  
Old 28-02-2011, 07:55   #1137
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Re: Steel Hulls vs Aluminum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Steel is very practical for boats this size, if you use more modern building methods, such as origami construction. The three dozen boats I've built all proved very practical.
When the cost of the steel for a 36 was around $6K a friend bought the aluminium for one . It cost $20 K just for the shell materials. Welding equipment for alloy is also far more expensive.
As I ordered the steel for my boat shotblasted and primed with a cold galvanizing primer, she was never sandblasted . That was 26 years ago, and the paint is as good as the day I put it on.
Aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to burn your feet on, if you dont paint it. Burce Cope from Cope aluminium Yachts says the only reliable way to get paint to stick to aluminium is to sandblast it. Finding effective antifouling for aluminium, which wont eat it with electrolysis, is diffucult, and expensive.
Steel only rusts from the inside if you don't properly paint the inside properly ( Like Foulkes boats don't). Simple solution. Paint it. I've had no such problems.
Aluminium weld failure is very common, steel weld failure is rare. Hiscocks boat was a screwup, with every mistake known to steel boatbuilding. The decks were covered with wood , which is like putting wet blotting paper over it, a major corrosion problem guarantee.
I saw her on the grid in Auckland, with only two tiny zincs the size of half a tennis ball on the entire hull.
When the steel work is done, you have the lifelines, hatches, cleats mooring bits, chocks , tankage, engine mounts, winch bases, anchor winch, mast fully detailed , self steering , handrails, thru hulls, filler pipes,anchors , bilge pumps, etc etc, all stuff one has to go out and buy in a fibreglas boat, which makes the steelwork on a steel boat far more than the 10 to 20% a bare fibreglas hull represents.
It cost me 4K to launch my 31 and 6K by the time I got her sailing and liveable.
.
Hiscock's boat Wanderer IV was dutch built in a yard with a good reputation.

My aluminum TIG welding machine cost $1100, and a MIG machine suitable for welding Aluminum costs the same. Brittle AL welds are the result of using CO2 as the shielding gas instead of Ar. The method of protecting steel you mention, has a very short life and is burned off at the welds due to the heat of welding.
A 31 ft LOA boat similar to the SC31 needs 2800# of Al and 3500# should be ordered, this boat will only need 4000# of lead ballast due to the light weight of the al hull.

The hull and deck should be insulated with Poly ethylene foam, in which case the interior will be easy to cool and heat as necessary.

The deck should be covered with TBS or similar decking and the deck and houses painted a very light color.

I say it again, steel hulls have zilch resale value. Ditto with wood hulls. Then there is the rust bleeding with steel hulls. Stick with aluminum or GRP or Cold moulded.

The method of construction you propose is actually better done in aluminum than in steel, because the greater thickness of al plate will prevent oil canning to a greater degree than that of steel plate. However, your method does not provide attachment points for the hull and overhead ceiling, and likely insufficient longitudinal strength. Then there will be the stress raisers at the bulkheads. I much prefer a boat having several bulkheads and longitudinals on 10" centers.

INDY

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 08:01   #1138
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Drying Out between tides...

Quote:
Originally Posted by w1651 View Post
You say you have hauled two times in 26 years? But have you ever left her on her side on a beach somewhere and scraped her?
I was thinking I could do that. Just go to the beach until the keel starts to hit bottom. When the tide goes out scrape one side, the next day do the other. You could even paint and antifoul the hull this way.
And there have been some pretty amazing gadgets developed to hold your boat upright if you wanted to do it that way.
It was quite common 80 years ago to apply antifoul to a boat dried out between tides. Eric Hiscock writes in Wandering Under Sail of a cruise to Brittany in Dyarchy for just that purpose. New Zealand has drying grids everwhere, and the local boats tie to them, dry out scrub and wash the bottom and apply antifouling, before the tide returns.

So, yes you can do such a thing. Even in florida and the bahamas where there is but 1 m of tide, you can do as the Hiscocks did, ie dry out the top meter or so which is where most of the abrasion occurs, and repaint that.

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 08:11   #1139
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Large vs Small Boats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
CaptainALF, I don't think anybody is saying you can't post if you have a certain size boat. Obviously it's being done on all size boats, with all sorts of initial purchase prices. And I think we've proven there is no right or wrong way to do it...The whole point of this thread (that I can see) is for people like yourself to come out of the woodwork and talk about HOW you are able to live on such a small amount of money, particularly since you're on a larger boat.

The point I made earlier about starting with a small or project boat, was only to say it CAN be done that way (in opposition to the figures of building a new boat). Not that has to be done that way... I do believe there are many full time liveaboard, world cruising sailors out there on under 30' boats. I've been reading about them for years, attempting to figure out how they're making it work...but they are not usually the ones with blogs and satphone linked twitter accounts

There's no doubt anybody can spend as much as they want on their boat. But for those that are financially challanged BEFORE they buy a boat, they need to know there are ways to circumvent the issues. Particularly since there is no relevant discussion on these matters (until now?). It's extremely difficult to go on the internet and read websites like this one and try to glean information, or even positive encouragement, about serious budget cruising. Everybody wants to either say it should only be done their way, or it can't be done at all... Can we just talk about how we are doing it and leave the decisions to the people making them?
Thank you CallMeCrazy for bringing up an extremely valuable point. This forum is for the practicalities of micro-budget cruising. Micro-budget cruising is defined here as that in boats less than 34 ft LOA. While we concede that frugality is possible in larger boats there are certain irrefutables that prevail

a) boats less than 34 ft LOA do not need a windlass, and can make do with a pawl

b) boats less than 36 ft LOA pay half $150 as much as larger boats to cruise the bahamas $ 300

c) boats less than 34ft LOA and of popular design have many used sails in good condition available to them.

d) boats less than 34 ft LOA do not need engines and can be rowed into port by one man

e) Boats less than 34 ft LOA do not need anchoring balls, large navigation lights, etc.

f) boats less than 34 ft LOA can do without winches.

Regarding the predictions given regarding comfort in boats this size... if the alternative is not going at all, the issue is irrelevant, HOWEVER, boats of this size, given moderate draft, are ideal for gunkholing. Conditions in gunkholes are always calm and quiet, and ventilation is most important.

So ventilation, screens, awnings, and the like are more critical to comfort than size.

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 28-02-2011, 08:18   #1140
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Scrubbing the Bottom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking Sailor View Post
I figure that if you are the kind of person who would build a welder so that you could build yourself a steel boat. You could build a simple brush or even a hookah dive unit for cleaning the boat's bottom.

The hookah unit could also be a good source of extra income while cruising.

I go down with mask fins and snorkle to clean the bottom of pegasus. For tools I use a washcloth and a putty knife about 4 in wide.

Drying out on a grid involves tying the boat to uprights embedded in the bottom or to a wall, the boat stays upright and life aboard is undisturbed.

Careening is what was shown in the photo, and involves warping the boat onto its side using the masts as levers. In the old days, it was done on a beach in a small cove.

Using the mask, fins, and snorkle permitted me to eke 5 years out of the last bottom job.

INDY
__________________

__________________
goprisko is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
cruising

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising on $500 / Month Springbok Dollars & Cents 337 10-11-2010 09:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.