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Old 22-05-2010, 08:32   #241
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Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
but in this thread the only figures of interest are those appropriate for the minimalist who has few resources and must make the most of them.
I disagree

To me all figures are of interest as comparisons to give a low budget context.

Quote:
To enter this blog and emit invective and criticism.................
You've mentioned the blog thing a few times already...........Errrrrr. this is not a Blog. On a Blog folk can spout whatever they like (in any style )and all responses can be edited or deleted as wanted.

But here be a (discussion) forum. A very different beast ........the whole purpose of a forum is to interact with others.

In practice being able to engage with an audience (rather than lecture at) tends to work well - otherwise it tends to bring out human nature in some readers ...........no matter the value of the content offered.

Annoyingly I can see you do have some things worth reading, just a very irritating style (to me) of communication
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Old 22-05-2010, 08:55   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I disagree

To me all figures are of interest as comparisons to give a low budget context.



You've mentioned the blog thing a few times already...........Errrrrr. this is not a Blog. On a Blog folk can spout whatever they like (in any style )and all responses can be edited or deleted as wanted.

But here be a (discussion) forum. A very different beast ........the whole purpose of a forum is to interact with others.

In practice being able to engage with an audience (rather than lecture at) tends to work well - otherwise it tends to bring out human nature in some readers ...........no matter the value of the content offered.

Annoyingly I can see you do have some things worth reading, just a very irritating style (to me) of communication

I'M OBSESSED WITH FIGURES....
36-24-36
44DD-30-38
40-28-38
34-26-36
6'0
5'6
5'2
4'9
My life would be worthless without important figures to deal with...
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Old 22-05-2010, 09:10   #243
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whats the cheapest viable sailboat for 2 adults and 3 kids ranging from 9 to 13 to live on and have the option to sail where you choose
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Old 22-05-2010, 09:29   #244
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Originally Posted by freelife View Post
whats the cheapest viable sailboat for 2 adults and 3 kids ranging from 9 to 13 to live on and have the option to sail where you choose
Lmao... Man thats an open question... type/size... 38-46 ex-charter boat with three sleeping cabins if your a European with no hang-ups about nudity etc... oh and minimum 2 toilets... Prices from 50K upwards...
Or... if up-tight with above senario and the kids don't get on... 40+ Mono or Cat with 4 cabins and three toilets... Prices from 150K upwards...
Pearce Yachts are advertising a 1998 Bavaria 46 for $60,000 on www.allatsea.net .... as with all bargains... count on spending a tad on fitting out..
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Old 22-05-2010, 10:09   #245
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Sails and Costs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariness View Post
Oooh, you're gonna want to be careful throwing around words like elitism. You've put up a lot of good ideas (that could be useful even to those of us with a slightly higher budget) ... but elitism runs both ways. I realize it wasn't your intent so don't jump on me, but there is the implication in some of your posts of a reverse-elitism: that doing it cheap is better, not just available to different people.

2nd concern: Those sails you posted seem like good prices, but I would be worried about them.


Wouldn't it be better to spend a bit more, and start off with sails that are in better condition and have all their parts? If they already need patches when you're starting out, what are they going to look like on the other side of a passage - this seems like 'throwing good money after bad' when they have to be replaced again that much sooner?
Of course you can spend more... and of course this boat needs 5 oz cloth, which means a heavy duty home machine like the viking can do the sewing job and you can make new ones for about this price... Except for the chute which is in very good condition

Some take this thread the way you do.. and their reactions reflect that... This is why I have repeatedly mentioned that this form of cruising is a choice.. not a command.. and the info I am posting here is to permit those of limited means the opportunity to cruise.. and complete their voyages..
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Old 22-05-2010, 10:11   #246
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Standing and Running Rigging......

Now let's turn our attention to the Standing and Running Rigging of the Southern Cross 31...

Running Rigging
ITEM
Dia
Feet
Price / ft
TOTAL
LIFE
INCH
Main Halyard
0.31
60
1.09
$65.40
Staysail Halyard
0.31
55
1.09
$59.95
Yankee Halyard
0.31
65
1.09
$70.85
Main Sheet
0.44
50
1.33
$66.50
Yankee Sheet
0.44
60
1.33
$79.80
Staysail Sheet
0.44
48
1.33
$63.84
Preventer
0.44
35
1.33
$46.55
TOTAL
$452.89
10
$45.29
Snatch Blocks
2
139
$278.00
MastHead Sheaves
3
12
$36.00
Preventer Blocks
12
$0.00
Mainsheet Triple Block
1
150
$150.00
Mainsheet Double Block
1
70
$70.00
Anderson 12 St Winch
4
538
$2,152.00
Anderson 18 St Winch
2
604
$1,208.00
TOTAL
$3,894.00
20
$194.70
Standing Rigging
ITEM
Dia
Feet
Price / ft
TOTAL
LIFE
Lowers
0.25
48
4.61
$221.28
intermediates
0.25
48
4.61
$221.28
uppers
0.25
60
4.61
$276.60
staysail stay
0.25
30
4.61
$138.30
jib stay
0.25
40
4.61
$184.40
back stay
0.25
40
4.61
$184.40
Turnbuckles
0.375
11
70
$770.00
TOTAL
$1,996.26
20
$99.81
Annual Operating Cost
$339.80
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Old 22-05-2010, 10:14   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post

We are now up to

Galley and Head $ 130 / yr
Antifouling $ 200 / yr
Sails $ 350 / yr

Total $ 680 / yr

INDY
Adding.....
Standing and Running Rigging $ 339 / yr

Total $ 1,020 / yr
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Old 22-05-2010, 10:15   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freelife View Post
whats the cheapest viable sailboat for 2 adults and 3 kids ranging from 9 to 13 to live on and have the option to sail where you choose
Have seen French families doing it on a boat about 9-10 meters long... what we are describing here

INDY
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Old 22-05-2010, 10:40   #249
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Indy... "Talking About"...I doubt its what a lot of Europeans would tolerate... the 9-10

Hence my starter at 38... did originally put 34-38 but then figured Stateside...
Oh.. freelife... theres always the Heavenly Twins Cat's...
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Old 22-05-2010, 10:50   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I disagree

To me all figures are of interest as comparisons to give a low budget context.



You've mentioned the blog thing a few times already...........Errrrrr. this is not a Blog. On a Blog folk can spout whatever they like (in any style )and all responses can be edited or deleted as wanted.

But here be a (discussion) forum. A very different beast ........the whole purpose of a forum is to interact with others.

In practice being able to engage with an audience (rather than lecture at) tends to work well - otherwise it tends to bring out human nature in some readers ...........no matter the value of the content offered.

Annoyingly I can see you do have some things worth reading, just a very irritating style (to me) of communication
Thank you for your comments....

As we get into the details of equipment expense, we are beginning to see how items added to the boat affect it's operating cost.. We only have a few more pieces of kit to deal with..

ICE BOX....

Assuming our budget minded cruiser is handy with his tools, he will be content to modify the built in box, perhaps with more insulation.

Let's assume this costs $ 500 and the box is good for 20 years because he used closed cell airex or polyethylene foam..

Operating costs are as follows:
Box $ 25 / yr
Ice $ 50 / month(Caribbean) or $ 600 / yr

Dinghy
Let's assume our cruiser builds his own Chameleon, for $ 500 plus $ 300 for two pairs of oars ( he needs a spare )

Dinghy $ 500 over 20 years or $ 25 /yr
Oars $ 300 over 20 years or $ 15 /yr
Sail and Mast $ 300 over 10 years or $ 30/yr
Total annual operating expense for the Dinghy $ 70/yr

Oar for main boat.. since our intrepid sailor has no engine, he needs a 21 ft long oar to push his ship into harbor during calms, etc. He makes his own from a suitable piece of 12/4 Ash 8" wide having 42 board feet costing $ 6 / bd ft or $ 240

Oar for Main Boat $ 300 over 20 years or $ 10 / yr



We now have

All the foregoing at $ 1050 / yr
Ice Box $ 25 / yr
Ice $ 600/ yr
Dinghy $ 25/yr
Oars $ 15 / yr
Sails for Dink $ 30/yr
Oar for Boat $ 10/yr
this brings our annual operating expense to $ 1755 / yr

For this sum, we have a southern cross 31 with new standing and running rigging, reworked Cooker, sinks, head, ice box, new dink complete with oars and sails, and a long oar to propel the boat.

We just need to add sums for the cabin and navigation lamps to complete the basic kit...

Lamps....

Oil Anchor Lamp $ 260
Oil Navigation Lamp Port $ 75
Oil Navigation Lamp Starbd $ 75
Oil Navigation Lamp Masthead $ 80
Oil Cabin Lamps Weems and Plath Trawler $ 180
2 Alladin Aluminum Shelf $ 200
Wicks $ 144 for 12
Mantles $ 72 for 12
TOTAL $ 1086
Given a 20 year life the lamps have an annual operating cost of $ 54 / yr

This raises our total annual operating cost to $ 1810 /yr.

Since our budget was larger than this every thing looks Ok so far...

The Sextants, chronometer, barometer, VHF radio etc belong in the "Navigation" category so they are not expensed here...

A few observations... it may prove cheaper to install a pair of Group 27 deep cycle batteries, LED cabin and Navigation Lamps a 60 watt solar panel, and controller than to install the oil lamps.

Perhaps one of you would cost them out and post your results.

INDY
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Old 22-05-2010, 11:02   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Indy... "Talking About"...I doubt its what a lot of Europeans would tolerate... the 9-10

Hence my starter at 38... did originally put 34-38 but then figured Stateside...
Oh.. freelife... theres always the Heavenly Twins Cat's...
If the man has the money for such a boat... and the money to operate such a boat..
good for him.... but what if he doesn't ??

My point is I have seen French families cruising on boats of this size... how happy they were in private I don't know... but during the day.. they seemed to have fun..

Tom Colvin designed the Gazelle at 10 tons and 40 ft for cruises with his family, which supports your suggestion. Certainly, in a boat about 40 ft long, an aft cabin works, and thus privacy from the kids is available... But that boat is more expensive than what we are discussing here.

Which brings to mind a very important point made by Fishwife... many folks leave in boats too large for them to support once they are cruising... they spend all their kit enroute somewhere, and find themselves stranded far from home, hoping to sell the boat, at a big loss, to get enough money to make it back home.

It is very important that the cruiser be honest with himself regarding his ability to support himself during his cruise...

Australia is currently seeking skilled people to emigrate there, but they must be younger than 45.

NZ likewise...

Commonwealth citizens qualify for "working holiday visas" which permit them to work as waitresses and bartenders, etc overseas..

US citizens who are reservists, can arrange with their NCO or CO to consolidate their drilling requirement into two back to back 45 day ACDUTRA tours.. and an E-6 over 8 earns $ 3k / month plus housing, meals, and supplementals.

Many EU citizens, notably from France, get sufficient money from their government to support their children to afford cruising in small boats.

Native English speakers are in demand in Asia to teach English, but you need a TOEFL.

INDY
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Old 22-05-2010, 11:07   #252
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Some good boats....

Atom voyages has a URL where boats suitable for minimalist cruising are discussed.

Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom -* Good Old Boats List - choosing a* small voyaging sailboat

Please go to it for further information.

INDY

Luperon yacht sales is currently trying to sell a southern cross 31, fully equipped for $ 29K..

That URL is...

LuperonYachts & LuperonProperties ~ Southern Cross 31 Sloop 1980 ~ CRUISING CONDITION

It has many photos of the boat, which looks like a gem...

INDY
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Old 22-05-2010, 11:20   #253
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Thank you very much Fishwife for sharing important opinions and data...



Lets revisit the budget...

Provisions $ 2400.. assuming a crew of two... extensive use of legumes
Entertainment $ 700
Marina/mooring $ 0
Communication $ 200
assuming use of Skype at internet cafes and email
Fuel $ 60
LPG and lamp oil
Officials $ 200
Navigation $ 500 Beth calls this OTHER
Boat Maintenance $ 1200
No Engine... 25% reduction
Boat Insurance $ 0
Health Fund $ 200
Gifts $ 100

TOTAL $ 5560 / year


From our analysis, we now know that we need to allocate $ 1810/ yr to boat maintenance, including haulouts

so our budget now looks like this......

Provisions $ 2230 reduced slightly....
Entertainment $ 700
Marina/mooring $ 0
Communication $ 200
assuming use of Skype at internet cafes and email
Fuel $ 60
LPG and lamp oil
Officials $ 200
Navigation $ 500 Beth calls this OTHER
Boat Maintenance $ 1810
No Engine... 25% reduction
Boat Insurance $ 0
Health Fund $ 200
Gifts $ 100

TOTAL $ 6000 / year


I won't go into detail regarding the Navigation expense section because it can vary so much and does vary greatly depending upon your cruising plans..

For example: if like me... you are too old for circumnavigating.. and intend to sojourn in Florida Bay and the Bahamas... about $ 250 of chart kits will do you and you only need a hand bearing compass, dividers, weems plotter, compass, and pencils. You can dispense with the rest. This kit costs about $ 300, lasts more than 20 years, and has an annual operating cost of $ 15/yr.

However, if a circumnavigation is your goal.. and you intend doing it in 3 years, you will have a very large folio of charts, sextant, chronometer, barometer, weems plotter, hand bearing compass, dividers, compass, almanac, pilots, and cruising guides... this lot can cost up to $ 6000 depending upon whether you buy official charts, chart copies, BA pilots, or just the cruising guides. Further you must expense it over 3 years, giving an annual operating cost of $2000.and very likely less.

The point I am making here is the following one....

EVERYTHING YOU PUT ABOARD EATS !!!!

That is, it costs you something every month to keep it going...

There is no free lunch...

INDY
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Old 22-05-2010, 13:18   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Adding.....
Standing and Running Rigging $ 339 / yr

Total $ 1,020 / yr
as you are going throu the prices , I'm finding you are missing items.. on the sails, you left out the snaps at about 5 to 7 dollars each. and the gromets at a couple dollars each.. its the little things that eat your funds and you forget those little things..
your rigging is fine but you,ve left out the replacement of any of the fittings...
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Old 22-05-2010, 21:48   #255
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Phew.... now I know why I didn't/don't make lists of things I'm supposed to buy.. just buy as and when needed/afforded... you've done my head in...
I could have done as many on here have and waited till my 60th in 08.. but then I'd have missed out on 20+ crazy years sailing the Channel, Atlantic, Med and Caribbean... be less healthy and agile and probably balder than I am... but I'd have A Plan...
OK... I've never circumnavigated... maybe I'll never sail the Pacific.. but then its never been an ambition... the lifestyle and adventure was... and there's plenty of that whichever Ocean your cruising...
My motivation for being out here was to start Living... not to while my days away ticking off items on lists of things to buy or places to visit/visited...
As to Fishwife's point about folks getting stranded in distant places they've sailed too... try what I've done in the past and will likely do again instead...
Pick an Area/Ocean/Sea.. Fly, Buy and Sail back... all it takes is a little FAITH... and it sure as hell is exciting.
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