Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 10 votes, 4.10 average. Display Modes
Old 20-05-2010, 16:08   #226
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,189
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate

Fishwife.... thats a fact... most confuse the dream with the reality and set of with blythe spirits...
I know I did the first time I headed off for distant shores...
Since that day when I had loads of dosh... and today... 11 boats later.... I've spent a lot.. and lost even more...
The truth is I'm a lucky guy... not just 'out there' but in general...
I spent one winter in a marina in Spain.. paid up front.. three months later I was raiding the hydroponic farms for mishapen veg... I was broke.. and then someone moaned their mast was dirty.. I offered to wash it.. I made a couple of bucks... and so it went on... free dived for winches dropped over the side.. scrubbed a 45ft Prout Cat's bottom in my wet suit... that was a killer...lol
then just before the season began a guy walked up to the boat and asked if I'd do a delivery to the UK... SALVATION... I lived to sail another day.
Today its pretty much the same... marina bill to pay before I can move on... but now I've a delivery job so I live to sail again...
Never despair... there's always a way out... you've just got to find it.. and the biggest secret is... don't let anyone else see how bad things are... sailors who 'bleed' all over one are avoided like the plague..
The one's who do it best are the one's who have a budget they stick to... and a get out of jail free bank debit card to get them home if the 'Sh*t hits the Fan'...

Or like me... the good luck to meet nice rite people at the rite time...
And people say you don't need luck out there... Ha...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline  
Old 20-05-2010, 19:02   #227
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Early on I posted a proforma budget as a basis for a discussion on budgets..

It was as follows:

Food: $ 125
Customs $ 50
Boat maintenance $ 200
Fuel $ 25
Excursions $ 100
TOTAL $ 500

I would be happy to discuss this with anyone serious...
From Post #1 -

Quote:
Food $ 150
Port Entry and Clearance $ 50
Entertainment $ 50
Sail maintenance $ 50
Fuel $ 50
Haulouts $ 50
Repairs $ 100
TOTAL $ 500
Seems there is a little budget drift going on goprisko?

Seems like we cut down on the food & fuel budget in order to do some more excursions/entertaining on shore.

My hat is off to you for you very detailed checklists. I certainly have saved a couple of them as they are comprehensive and useful.

I don't really have a dog in this fight other than to say a couple of things.

- Anytime cruising budgets are discussed the wild card is the exclusions and the time frame. I can cruise a weekend for free, a week for $XXX, A month for $YYY and a year for $ZZZ. Obviously in the weekend cruise I have excluded everything I bought before the weekend and everything I need to buy after the weekend.

The point is what if I am 30 and want to cruise until I am 75? 45 years is a long time and every cost must be considered including cost of the boat, residual value of the boat if I eventually move into a rest home, insurance, boat maintenance for 40 years not 5 years.

As another poster presented I am much more confident in searching the web, finding logs of people who have done it (recently) and comparing my lifestyle choices to theirs.

Can someone go cruising on $500 a month for a short while - sure. The exit strategy is easy - Go home and get a job.

If I make the choice to go long term there is a lot more to consider.

There are two camps here. Those that think it possible and those that don't. As an engineer I can get on either side of the argument. All I need to do is define a set of boundaries that fit either premise.

I am not currently parked on, "$500 a month is sustainable for 45 years."

I am parked on "$500 a month is doable for a year or two if the boat is paid for, up to scratch (ready to go), and I am very healthy."

I don't think excursions fit in that budget. It's food, port costs (I don't move a heck of a lot), minor maintenance and boat consumables, I row my dink to shore and walk everywhere when I get there. My excursions are beachcombing and nature loving. I probably never hit a restaurant or bar and I better get mighty used to salt water bathing and pooping in the ocean.

At one time in my life that would have been fun and I bet there are a few guys & gals out there doing it right now - We just don't know about it because they can't afford a phone, computer or internet connection.
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 07:38   #228
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Beth's Paper...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo View Post
You left out the category "boat expenses". Beth writes about 3 boats: simplicity, moderation and high life. The respective total budgets for each are 8,000; 20,000 and 60,000. Those numbers are from a few years back. You cut and pasted only the "living expense category and left out the "boat expense" category. I just wanted to know why (okay, honestly, I just wanted to see if you would say why you did it).

Enough.

-M
Thank you for pointing out that I missed the remaining 3 tables from this paper...

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/costofcruising.pdf

Which Fishwife was kind enough to share...

Please find the tables attached....
Attached Images
    
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 08:13   #229
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Budgets and Gimcrack

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishwife View Post
Might I suggest that the bucket is made redundant if you have a composting toilet.

One of many on the market Air Head Dry Toilet: Marine Composting Toilets - Environmentally Friendly Marine Composting Toilet System

As for budget, I've read all sorts of opinions and found actually going cruising, you spend what you have available. If you don't have enough you end up somewhere far from home hoping to sell your boat. That extreme has led to real despair and suicide. I've had personal experience of people who set off following the dream and life dealt them one too many financial blows. I'd hate to stop someone setting off but IMHO $500 a month is living right on the edge.

My 3 cents worth (even my opinion has inflationary costs).

P.
Thank you very much Fishwife for sharing important opinions and data...

I personally know all about being stranded enroute... the first time was caused by faulty info from home regarding the dot com crash, which cratered the Endowment on which we financed the expedition. The second time was caused by the Government of Namibia who welshed on their promise to reimburse us for our travel expenses to Namibia. Local friends assisted us until we could get on our feet again... in each case... I cannot thank them enough.

That said, the composting toilet is a great idea.. while I have not yet visited the site, if this toilet does not use water, it need not have a seacock.. and that is a very good thing.

Regarding Beth's Simplicity Budget, I see several items that our target 28-34 ft boat crewed by two can dispense with, as follows:

Boat Insurance $ 368
Communication $419
TOTAL $ 887

This drops the Simplicity budget to $ 6900 or so...

Beth's budget has the following items...

Entertainment $ 697
Souvenirs $ 150
Fuel $ 334
Marina $ 316

From our personal experience the Marina category is discretionary. If our
target cruiser has no engine the fuel expense goes away, and the boat maintenance expense drops by a third...

Lets revisit the budget...

Provisions $ 2400.. assuming a crew of two... extensive use of legumes
Entertainment $ 700
Marina/mooring $ 0
Communication $ 200
assuming use of Skype at internet cafes and email
Fuel $ 60
LPG and lamp oil
Officials $ 200
Navigation $ 500 Beth calls this OTHER
Boat Maintenance $ 1200
No Engine... 25% reduction
Boat Insurance $ 0
Health Fund $ 200
Gifts $ 100

TOTAL $ 5560 / year

Leaving $ 440 un- allocated...

NOW.......

Living on such a budget is a lifestyle choice... no one can command anyone to do so...

Certainly I am not doing so....

Even so... given the following costs....

Boat $ 25,000
Outfitting and repairs to boat $ 10,000
3 Years cruising funds $ 18,000

TOTAL $ 53,000

We are speaking of an investment twice as large as the average amount of savings per household in the USA... This is a substantial investment.... No one should contemplate doing this lightly...

There are many alternatives... let's examine one that ie represented by the commentors who have boats larger than 40 ft.

Boat $ 350,000
Outfitting $ 100,000
3 Years cruising funds $ 75,000

TOTAL $ 525,000

This sum is attainable only by those who sold their houses at the top of the market, or who are highly paid professionals...

SO..... the question remains... in which category economically do you fit?

This thread is for the plebian sector of the community...

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 18:04   #230
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,440
Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Thank you very much Fishwife for sharing important opinions and data...

From our personal experience the Marina category is discretionary.

Absolutely correct, and important at all budget levels.


NOW.......

Living on such a budget is a lifestyle choice... no one can command anyone to do so...

Certainly I am not doing so....

Even so... given the following costs....

Boat $ 25,000
Outfitting and repairs to boat $ 10,000
3 Years cruising funds $ 18,000

TOTAL $ 53,000

We are speaking of an investment twice as large as the average amount of savings per household in the USA... This is a substantial investment.... No one should contemplate doing this lightly...

Again, correct

There are many alternatives... let's examine one that ie represented by the commentors who have boats larger than 40 ft.

Boat $ 350,000
Outfitting $ 100,000
3 Years cruising funds $ 75,000

Whoops, here I see a bit of unfair comparison: You allow the low budget cruiser to search for and find a bargain smaller boat, but you seem to assume that anyone in a larger craft simply goes out and pays list price for a new or nearly new boat. Having done so, he then finds that it is poorly equipped and hires someone to bring it up to speed for 100 k$ instead of doing it himself. When he finally get under way, he lives profligately and spends more than four times what your low bucks chap does each year.

I will certainly agree that larger boats cost more than smaller ones, both to buy and to maintain, but owning a larger boat does not automatically mean that one spends indiscriminately. There are a lot of folks out cruising in 40+ foot boats whose budgets are FAR less than your example (but are indeed greater than the target of 500$/month), and whose total outlay is way less than the 525k$ you come up with.

TOTAL $ 525,000

This sum is attainable only by those who sold their houses at the top of the market, or who are highly paid professionals...

SO..... the question remains... in which category economically do you fit?

This thread is for the plebian sector of the community...

Indy, while I have disagreed with some of the details of your arguments, I certainly do agree with your support of low cost cruising, and imagine that many folks have benefitted from the opinions that you express.

I still feel that your insistance on Draconian predeparture disassembly of the boat is excessive, and could lead to discouraging potential cruisers. You, of course, can have such exacting standards for your own vessels, but reqiring such measures as removing all the sinks to inspect them for corrosion damage might well lead a prospective sailor to take up golf instead!

INDY
Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Bayview, NSW, Oz
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 18:33   #231
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Cruising on $ 500 per month...

Thank you for admitting that the large income cruiser spends considerably more outfitting his floating condo than our budget cruiser.

There is no doubt many figures can be generated, but in this thread the only figures of interest are those appropriate for the minimalist who has few resources and must make the most of them.

To enter this blog and emit invective and criticism from the deck of 77 ft mega yachts moored in the Singapore Yacht Club Marina and other such venues, is not only counter productive, but it smacks of elitism, and an attempt to enforce a class heirarchy, both contrary to the concept of yachting as I know it.

This thread is MY IDEA... again prompted by the successful career of Kevin, who found an uncompleted Southern Cross 31 and finished it, and circumnavigated in it, without Engine, electrics, etc.. and to the memory of Lin and Larry Pardey who did the same in Seraffyn and Talesin.... on shoestring incomes.

This thread is for the express purpose of providing to the man with modest means, and the desire to see the world, concrete, proven strategies for achieving same.

I intend to carry this form forward with a detailed analysis of the costs associated with world wide cruising in Kevin's boat, the southern cross 31... Hopefully, the portugese, or fishwife will take on similar cost comparisons with boats like the folkboat, the wanderer class, the vertue, or the Pearson Vanguard.

The goal is to provide the wanna be cruiser with facts and figures he can use to begin his search for an economical boat to cruise with.

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 18:39   #232
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Sails for the Southern Cross 31

Every cruising boat that has been refastened and refurbished to the standard specified on the checklist, needs sails.

Depending upon what is there when the boat is purchased, the new owner may find he needs one or many.. in our analysis we will assume he needs everything...

Examination of the Bacon Website

Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies

shows many mainsails available at prices from $100-1000 but this one caught my attention because it has bronze slides..



Catalog Number: 255-BEJI-114 Luff: 32' 10" Leach: 34' 5" Foot: 13' 1" Head: 0' 0" Price: $375.00 MAIN, 5.9 oz DACRON BY HORIZON. 7/8" BRONZE SLIDES FOR EXTERNAL TRACK SHACKLED TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON A COVERED ROPE LUFF. 3/4" BRONZE SLIDES FOR EXTERNAL TRACK SHACKLED TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON A COVERED ROPE FOOT. LEACH LINE. ROWS OF REEFS UP: 2' 10" AND 5' 0". TAKES 4 STANDARD BATTENS: INCLUDED. LEACH LINE CHAFFED. NEEDS FEW SELF ADHESIVE PATCHES UP TO 2" X 2". MODERATE SOIL/STAIN. WHITE BAG. GOOD. 25 lbs.
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 18:47   #233
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
staysail for the southern cross 31

Continuing...

This staysail caught my attention....it is of 5 oz dacron, and is about the right size
for a #1 staysail on this boat..

Bacon Sails & Marine Supply
410-263-4880 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 410-263-4880 end_of_the_skype_highlighting Catalog Number: 102-TUR-104 Luff: 35' 1" Leach: 23' 7" Foot: 14' 4" Head: 0' 0" Price: $175.00 BACK STAY MULE, 5.0 OZ. DACRON, BY H.R.& R. BRONZE 2" PISTON HANKS ON ROPED LUFF. LEACH AND FOOT LINES. TAKES ONE FULL LENGTH BATTEN NOT INCLUDED. WHITE, LIGHT BLUE & MEDIUM BLUE. SOILED. STAINED. WHITE BAG. VERY GOOD.
Next needed is a yankee.....such a sail should be high clewed, as this one is...
Catalog Number: 59-SKET-104 Luff: 35' 1" Leach: 29' 2" Foot: 14' 7" Head: 0' 0" Price: $395.00 JIB. 7.0 OZ DACRON BY HOOD. WIRE HEAD PENNANT TO CREATE LOA 37' 7". 2 1/2" BRASS PISTON HANKS MOUNTED TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON COVERED ROPE LUFF. LEACH LINE. MINOR SOIL/ STAINS. NO BAG. GOOD+
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 18:49   #234
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
This boat needs a yankee.... such a sail must be high clewed... as this one is..

Catalog Number: 59-SKET-104 Luff: 35' 1" Leach: 29' 2" Foot: 14' 7" Head: 0' 0" Price: $395.00 JIB. 7.0 OZ DACRON BY HOOD. WIRE HEAD PENNANT TO CREATE LOA 37' 7". 2 1/2" BRASS PISTON HANKS MOUNTED TO GROMMETS WITH VINYL PROTECTORS ON COVERED ROPE LUFF. LEACH LINE. MINOR SOIL/ STAINS. NO BAG. GOOD+
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 18:54   #235
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
The entire wardrobe...

The total for these three sails is $ 945... this gives our cruiser three of his most important sails his working sails.

Next in importance will be a set of #2 head sails for this boat... we will guess that these are likewise available at a cost of ~ $350 each and will cost $700.

Here is a suitable sail for $250

Catalog Number: 185-VRO-101 Luff: 33' 5" Leach: 29' 6" Foot: 13' 2" Head: 0' 0" Price: $275.00 STORM JIB, 7.5 OZ. DACRON. GEMINI LUFF TAPE SEWN TO COVERED WIRE LUFF. LEECH AND FOOT LINES. SOILED. CONTACT RUST STAINS, OTHER STAINS. WHITE BAG/GREEN STRIPE. GOOD.
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 18:56   #236
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
For light airs, nothing beats a cruising chute.. this one is in very good condition and has a sock..

Cost $695...


Bacon Sails & Marine Supply
410-263-4880 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 410-263-4880 end_of_the_skype_highlighting Catalog Number: 129-MASL-111 Luff: 38' 2" Leach: 34' 3" Foot: 19' 3" Head: 0' 0" Price: $695.00 RADIAL HEAD ASYMETRICAL SPINNAKER, 1.5 oz RIP-STOP NYLON. COLORS: PINK AND BLUE. INCLUDES CHUTE SCOOP STYLE SNUFFER WITH HOISTING LINES AND HARDWARE MAKING LOA 39' 1". WHITE TURTLE BAG. VERY GOOD. 21 lbs.
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 19:05   #237
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Sail inventory for an engineless southern cross 31

Working sails $1000
#2 headsails $ 700
Cruising Chute $ 700
Spare main $ 400

Trysail $ 300
Stormsails $ 400

Total $ 3500

Given an expected life of 10 years for the headsails and 5 years for the main.. I priced in two mains this gives an annual cost of $350 for sail depreciation.

This item will be part of our boat maintenance budget...

The following parts thereof must be added...

Running Rigging
Standing Rigging
Deck Fittings
Hull Fittings
Antifouling
Galley maintenance(cooker and sink and pump)
Head maintenance(WC, sink, and pump)
Tankage
Cushions
Interior paint and varnishwork
Exterior paint and varnish work

such other categories as we find appropriate.

It is my intent that we flesh out the cost of each of these categories, and estimate the annual expense to maintain them..

In this manner, we will have a concrete estimate of the largest item on the budget, the boat.
INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 19:12   #238
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
antifouling the SC 31

The SC 31 takes about 3/4 gallon of antifouling paint per coat, perhaps a little less
assuming we put on 3 full coats and extra at near the waterline, using an ablative antifouling, would seem 3 gallons would suffice costing $ 700

Hauling a boat of this size in an economical yard will cost about $350

So a haulout will cost about $1000... is good for about 5 years, using SeaHawk BioTin... or $200 per year annual haulout expense.

We are now up to ,,,,

Sails $350 per yr
Haulout $200 per yr.

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 21-05-2010, 19:21   #239
cruiser

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: Pegasus 45 25 Tons, "Pegasus"
Posts: 531
Galley and Head...

Sinks last a very long time... the ones on Pegasus are 20 years old and still sound..
A LAVAC head likewise lasts a long time, with little maintenance

The cooker I have has lasted 20 years with new burners every 5 years,costing $240 for a set of four... we will assume the cooker on this boat has two...

The Fynspray WS 80 pump needs little but new leathers every 2 years costing $10

This works out accordingly....

Head LAVAC $700 plus Henderson repair kit every 5 years costing $60
Expected life 20 years

Sink Stainless, galley $150 expected life 20 years

Sink Stainless, head $120 expected life 20 years

Cooker, Princess, $ 900, expected life 20 years

Head $35 / yr
Henderson pump $12 / yr
Galley Sink $7.50 / yr
Head Sink $ 6 / yr
Cooker $45 / yr
Burners $ 24/ yr

TOTAL $ 130 / yr

We are now up to

Galley $130 / yr
Antifouling $ 200 / yr
Sails $350 / yr

Total $680 / yr

INDY
__________________
goprisko is offline  
Old 22-05-2010, 07:20   #240
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 294
Quote:
smacks of elitism, and an attempt to enforce a class heirarchy,
Oooh, you're gonna want to be careful throwing around words like elitism. You've put up a lot of good ideas (that could be useful even to those of us with a slightly higher budget) ... but elitism runs both ways. I realize it wasn't your intent so don't jump on me, but there is the implication in some of your posts of a reverse-elitism: that doing it cheap is better, not just available to different people.

2nd concern: Those sails you posted seem like good prices, but I would be worried about them.
Quote:
LEACH LINE CHAFFED. NEEDS FEW SELF ADHESIVE PATCHES UP TO 2" X 2".
Quote:
ONE FULL LENGTH BATTEN NOT INCLUDED.
Wouldn't it be better to spend a bit more, and start off with sails that are in better condition and have all their parts? If they already need patches when you're starting out, what are they going to look like on the other side of a passage - this seems like 'throwing good money after bad' when they have to be replaced again that much sooner?
__________________

__________________
Mariness is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
cruising

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising on $500 / Month Springbok Dollars & Cents 337 10-11-2010 09:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.