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Old 04-12-2011, 13:30   #2296
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Wrong.

The cruising budget we showed often, covers keeping the boat going and upgrades. Yes, this budget is tight, that's why the boat must be a simple mono-hull between 28-34' LOA.

Bigger boats cost more to buy, operate, and keep up. Costs are proportional to displacement.

GRP has done a lot to keep operating and maintenance costs down.

But as soon as you put a gadget aboard, up go costs.

Cruising on a micro-budget requires discipline.

INDY
I am talking about boat costs from *before* I start cruising (or any other costs for that matter). If you are saying I should include the boat costs I spent before I started to cruise, how many other non-cruising expenses should I include and how far back should I go. Or should I average all the costs I have spent on the boat (and any other part of my life) since I bought it into my cruising costs.
I will not include the purchase price of my boat and all the upgrades necessary to get it ready to cruise or any other costs prior to the time I leave (I will include stocking the boat and such). That said any maintenance and repairs on the boat after I have started cruising are part of the cruising costs. I am very limited on gadgets and the ones I have are just frills anyway.
As far as costs being proportional to displacement, the funky old heavy displacement boats are built more solidly that the spindly new (and expensive) production boats with much less displacement. The cheapest, real shoestring cruisers are often sailing heavy displacement boats.
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Old 04-12-2011, 15:42   #2297
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

It seems to me that not including 'preparation' costs is a major cop-out to this whole thread. A person could spend the next 10 years and $100,000 preparing the 'perfect' boat, with 3x spares for everything and a year's supply of food. Then go around writing books about how they went cruising on $500 a month (yeah I'm talking about the pardeys)

Anybody can cruise on $500 a month if they already have everything taken care of before-hand. And if you have a self-built boat with all new gear, or an expensive boat, it's going to cost a lot less to operate over the next 10 years. That makes sense financially, but only if you're in a position to manage that type of EXCESS finances to begin with.

I don't see how this is relevant to low-income, low-cost living/cruising. I could easily be self-sufficient and live a nice, simple, life on a farm. But how the hell am I going to afford a farm?

If you can afford to rent an apartment and own a used car, YOU CAN GO CRUISING within the next 2 years. Ask me how.


[not talking about any person specifically, or any specific post. Just a general comment on the whole idea of this thread]
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Old 04-12-2011, 18:42   #2298
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Gprisko is right. You can find a boat for free or very little money. How you fit it out can be inexpensive or cheap and basic. If you look at craig's listfor annapolis, there is a yard on kent island disposing of 25-30 ft boats. I am sure there are others around if you take the time to forage through the boatyards. One wanted 300 bucks for a 30 ft boat that came over from Europe some time ago. It's not nice, it needs scrubbing, and some fittings, but it could be a start. I know of one 30' owner who upgraded to a 40' boat of equal fit and finish and equal money. It took some work of searching and selling, but now is a great time to get an older fiberglass boat. Not a 2005 Beneteau, but maybe an older Alberg or Allied. You don't know what's going to turn up these days. I guess this whole thread is not for the usual cruising crowd, but for the newbies who are asking how they can get into boating on a budget.
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Old 04-12-2011, 19:15   #2299
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Do you really think a budget cruiser would get within spitting distance of the St Francis?
Not even to sweep the docks.
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Old 04-12-2011, 19:50   #2300
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Living in Europe, cruising for around 500 US$ is rather difficult. At todays rate that' s around 350 Euro.
Food only, for 1 person, might do. Just. Holland is expensive, England even more, France similar to Holland, only Germany is cheaper by 15% or something.
Spain is very expensive save for the alcohol.
Costs of Marina' s are crazy at least in the UK and Spain, so you need to have the knowledge of free anchor places. If you are a victim of marina's, the Club Nautico's (Spain) or the exclusive stuff in the UK (Brighton) then forget about this sort of schedule. Sweden and Denmark are even worse according to living costs.

It depends strongly where you are. Long time ago I used to cruise with my French mate in the North African waters. Some whisky that we imported from Gib bought us everything needed. Mooring at that time (1978) was absolutely free. What we had to pay was the rotting smell of fish that spoiled the fresh air in the harbour.

I could moore in Holland for free. But leaving the boat unattended with al its costly gear is a non-calculated risk.
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Old 04-12-2011, 20:10   #2301
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

These are just a few that I've seen on craigslist THIS WEEK.

32ft Sailboat great live aboard

This Cape Dory 28 Sailboat combined with this Farymann 12HP Diesel Inboard Engine 1000 obo (or even a cheaper outboard+bracket)

This 28' Comar Sailboat For Sale

this 1973 Morgan Racer/ Cruiser

This 31 foot seafarer fun n fast

And this doesn't count the sub-27 footers and the 'marginal' boats I wouldn't consider. The Ericson 29 across the slip from me just sold for $350 at auction, with good sails and a solid rig/hull (no motor).

These are all just within the PAST WEEK in my local area. These types of boats are everywhere, and they are only getting cheaper.

Yes they need work, but they don't need complete refits. You can refit a 'working' boat WHILE YOU CRUISE, over the course of many years. It doesn't matter if you put $50k into it, as long as you're out there cruising while you do it

All these boats are bluewater capable. They take a little work, but the parts can be cheap and you can still go sailing and enjoy the life while you're working on them. You can't do that building you're own boat! Yes, if you build one, you'd end up with a much better boat. But, you could spend the same amount of time saving money and just buy a boat ready to go! If you want to build a boat, build one. If you want to go sailing/cruising, get a cheap boat and go. It doesn't take a 20ton 40 footer with a full keel to cross an ocean. I wouldn't want to do it in a Hunter 27, but there are MANY production boats that are fully capable of making passages and, with a little upgrading, extended cruising...

Every one of the boats above can easily be had for less than $5000 (or less) purchase, then another $5k in refits (over time).

I paid $4k for mine, and have yet to put another $3k into it. I'd estimate I have about $3k to go before I'm comfortable. And I'm really not the most adventurous type of person. I like comfort... None of the work that needs to be done, is necessary yet. I can still sail south and hit my next destination if I wanted to. But, just for clarity, I'm staying put, on purpose, so I can have nice things.

I use $5000 as a base price a lot because that is the average a 'normal' person can save up in a year's time making $10 an hour and renting a cheap apartment in the US. It's perfectly reasonable to save $5000 a year. I can save $5000 in 7-8 months... It's not that difficult to use this number to plan for a cruising. $5k for the boat. $5k for the refit, over the course of a year. Then $5k for (a minimum) of 6 months cruising at a time. That's much more than $500 a month cruising budget. Stretch it out to $500 a month and you got almost a year... Work 6 months, cruise 6 months. That is how the seasons work anyway!

If you don't have to live on $500 a month, would you still do it? All these people that have spent $50k on their boats, and then go out and cruise on $500 a month, are doing it all backwards IMO. They could have spent $10k on the boat, and went cruising on $1000 a month for the next 6 years!

what is everyone so afraid of?
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Old 04-12-2011, 20:20   #2302
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by MacG View Post
Living in Europe, cruising for around 500 US$ is rather difficult. At todays rate that' s around 350 Euro.
Food only, for 1 person, might do. Just. Holland is expensive, England even more, France similar to Holland, only Germany is cheaper by 15% or something.
Spain is very expensive save for the alcohol.
Costs of Marina' s are crazy at least in the UK and Spain, so you need to have the knowledge of free anchor places. If you are a victim of marina's, the Club Nautico's (Spain) or the exclusive stuff in the UK (Brighton) then forget about this sort of schedule. Sweden and Denmark are even worse according to living costs.

It depends strongly where you are. Long time ago I used to cruise with my French mate in the North African waters. Some whisky that we imported from Gib bought us everything needed. Mooring at that time (1978) was absolutely free. What we had to pay was the rotting smell of fish that spoiled the fresh air in the harbour.

I could moore in Holland for free. But leaving the boat unattended with al its costly gear is a non-calculated risk.
Location is very important. I don't know much about Europe, but there's a reason the budget cruisers all congregate in Guatemala, Panama, Venezuala, and Columbia, instead of BVI, Bahamas, and Cancun.... There's cheap places mixed in with the expensive places everywhere on the planet. Plan ahead...
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Old 04-12-2011, 20:50   #2303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy
These are just a few that I've seen on craigslist THIS WEEK.

Every one of the boats above can easily be had for less than $5000 (or less) purchase, then another $5k in refits (over time).
As one who fully supports "go now, go cheap" the continuing dichotomy in this thread for me is whether the boat cost is included in the 500 a month.

Even a cheap, small, simple system boat needs basic sails, gear, sound hull and safety equipment. Sure you can lash together pet bottles and make a raft, people have done that, but where is the cutoff on hardship and frankly safety? And no I am not saying a small boat is unsafe but really, in big seas and big winds who wouldn't prefer to be on a bigger boat?

I agree that you might get a boat and get it ready for $10k but according to the "boat cost included" crowd this would eat up 20 months of budget.

I can get onboard with simple systems, small living space, extra skill needed to navigate a small boat on a big ocean, cheap food, free anchorages, paddling the dinghy etc. etc. etc.

If someone said, "can I buy and prep a boat for $20k, and then live on a budget of $500 a month for two or three years?" I am sold. I can't reconcile it otherwise.

Imagine you have zero net worth (i.e. no boat) and a cash flow of $500 a month. Seriously, no one in that situation is ever going cruising. Even with the average boat that you could get for free.

Now when someone says, "How about a 40 foot cat with gps, chartplotter, watermaker, inverters and all the big boats systems, for $300k, then 500 a month?" my answer is, "not if you want to keep all those systems working."

Reid Stowe spent 1000 days at sea and didn't spend a nickel. He was pretty well provisioned to start and at the end was pretty much drifting and avoiding any stress on sails and rig. Anything can be pretty much done to prove a point...

The boundary conditions of the exercise are most important. Having said that this thread has produced tons of ideas to keep costs down and is very useful in many regards. Take want you want, leave what you don't. Decide what levels of simplicity (hardship?) you can bear and get out there..
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:18   #2304
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

The big thing with me is if I limit my expenses to $500/month or less, could I make it to 'retirement' age and SS checks? What health insurance costs will I have (I am very healthy thankfully)? What unforeseen expenses will I have? If I am an inventor or photographer while living on-board, I might be able to supplement that $500.

The next question is, how many more years should I work and save to buy a 'better' boat, be more comfortable, and not worry about every single penny. I would also need a boat I could live-aboard and be self-sefficient on for a few days. And in the US, that means I need a head to go to the bathroom and a good bed. If I went today, I could afford the $20k boat plus a little for replacement parts & labor. I understand that other people's finances are different. 9 years ago, I should have lived on the 'free' boat at anchor while looking for a job... But now, if I work three more years and save another $40k, where would that put me? Would it be easier to convince a spouse to live on a bigger boat? My soon to be retired co-worker has invited me to go sailing on her 39' monohull the next time I'm in Florida, how much different is the 25' in terms of comfort while cruising long distances?

The Anarchist Yacht Clubb: Hold Fast

I have watched this movie, and they went the extremely cheap boat route and were successful at it, for a while. I would need to have a head and enough room for a folding bike at least to go for more than a few weeks. I would like to have a few electronic 'toys' aboard, and have less rolling while at anchor. I would also like to generate a lot of solar power.

(quickly did this, many other options, and unknown costs for repairs. I am not affiliated with any one of these boats)

$10k (Lots of these)
1986 Catalina 25 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

$21k
1972 Sailcraft Iroquois Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

$30k
1985 San Juan Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

$42k
1976 C&C 38 - long range cruising REFIT/UPGRADES Sail Boat For Sale

$50k
1991 Gemini Catamarans 3200 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

$60k
1993 Gemini 3400 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

There are plenty of different entry price points, and you are right. The $21k boat might work out better than the $60k boat since it allows you to go sooner, and not worry. And the cheaper boat allows you to 'blend in' a little more if you are traveling to lower-income parts of the world. I wouldn't skimp on safety gear, and would have good navigational and AIS equipment even.

Yet, I still believe that you could cruise with two people on any of those boats for $500 per month.

(Now I want to go and buy that $20k boat. I think if you come up with a way to convert the saloon area into a bed at night, it might work. Add a solar panel bimini and a hammock. And I could be in the keys instead of Ohio.)
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Old 05-12-2011, 04:22   #2305
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Here's a "search all of craig's list" for free sailboat:

search all of craigslist | allofcraigs.com - Search ALL of Craigslist
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:31   #2306
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

SunDevil: Alot of those smaller boats will have convertable berth in the main salon. On my boat, the table/seating converts to a very nice double berth. But it's a pain the ass so I've decided I'll never use it. After a few modifcations, the V-berth has turned into a very cozy place for two

going with 2 people is an entirely different story than going solo. You definitely want more comfort, storage space, and tankage. But still for $20k you can find a good 34-36 footer. But the thing is, you should have twice the income to compensate for the extra expenses of a second person and a bigger boat.

The trick to finding a cheap boat is to do extensive research and active shopping. Look at every boat you see. If it's too expensive to travel around and look for boats (like it was for me) you simply use the nearest major boating region to do the bulk of you're shopping. For me, living in Ohio, that meant weekend trips up to lake Erie and Lake Michigan. Looking at every single boat that was for sale, whether it was in my price/size range or not. Just to get a feel for all the different types of boats and what kind of condition they are in. After a few months of doing this, I had my shortlist narrowed down to just 3 boats. I then 'took off' and went in search of one of those 3 boats in a better location. This worked out quite well. And always remember, there's a lot more out there for sale than you will see on the internet...

From what I can tell, you'll still end up putting just as much money into a $30k boat as you would a $10k boat. You have to outfit it for offshore cruising, and unless it's built for offshore, they both require all the same stuff.

I too would like to 'upgrade' to a bigger/better boat at some point in the future. Living on a boat makes that even more possible, once you get past the upgrading/cruising thing. For me that means, at some point in my cruising career, I'll need to stop and work for a few years. To make this 'cruise friendly' I've chosen Hawaii as my upgrade location. I'll spend a few years cruising the caribbean in the boat I have, then cross over to hawaii and do the liveaboard thing for a few years, maybe find a partner, get a bigger boat, save for the trip across the pacific... it'll take more than 2 or 3 years, I'm estimating 5 years. But that will be After I've had a few good years of cruising and sailing, and It'll be Hawaii, I mean who wouldn't enjoy living there for a few years? That is one of the benefits of doing this while you're still young. I know for a fact this won't be my last boat, so i have no desire to outfit for the end of the world.
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:40   #2307
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

A lot of people want to just save up until they can afford the nicer/bigger boat, Then start cruising...(or maybe build a boat)

Thats fine, but from where I'm sitting, that is the normal way of doing it. There's nothing extraordinary about it. Everyone on boats has a limited budget of some sort. The question of this thread (or should be) is how to do it differently, and making it work with what you currently have available.

The folks from "Hold Fast" spent 3 seasons cruising that boat. They got their fill and moved on, but there's no reason they couldn't have taken that boat to the caribbean and beyond in the condition it was in (making upgrades/repairs as needed). They are a good example of what is possible with only a few thousand dollars to work with. I personally think they could have gotten a better boat for what they put into it, but they obviously didn't need it
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:30   #2308
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

In addition to operational costs there are maintenance and repair costs. Maintenance is just what the word says maintaining...repair can be broken down into two categories, the result of not maintaining the boat and damage. One of the most important ways of keeping your cruising costs down is to make sure the boat is in good condition otherwise you will be spending all your time and going over budget to keep it working.
I am not waiting until I have the "perfect boat" before I leave, too many people do that and never leave (I suspect alot of them are really afraid to leave anyway and are content with saying what they will do someday). I inspected the bottom last winter and put on 3 gal of epoxy barrier coat, new chainplates and standing rigging (most was already 1/4" 7x19 316ss, anything that wasn't will be now), engine only has 1500 hrs, new vhf, coax and antenna.....there is not alot that *has* to be done before I leave, alot can be done later.
As to the theory that you have to include the pruchase price of the boat and any other costs leading up to your cruise in your future month cruising budget....I figure I am 51year old and at 500/mo that is $306,000 and I have not made that much money in my entire life so that starts me out under budget (including purchase price of the boat). This is the budget it takes to cruise and all the expenses while doing it....not leading up to.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:39   #2309
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Living on a 500 US$ / monthly budget is restricted to certain area' s.

I take in regard only the costs of living and maintainance of the boat.

If you include personal cost like Health Insurance, boat insurance (obligatory),
gasoil - whatever little you use - berthing - what little you use -
It is just looking for the Dorado Islands - i.e. it is a dream and no more than that.
It may work (to a certain extend) in the America' s and some places in the Asian continent.
In Europe, it is the ultimate impossible, unless, maybe, some places in the Black Sea.
I leave this discussion where it belongs - in the America' s and Asia, not my present sailing grounds.
The world is getting overpopulated, overcrowded. The basis of the recent global problems.
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Old 05-12-2011, 13:04   #2310
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Living on a 500 US$ / monthly budget is restricted to certain area' s.

I take in regard only the costs of living and maintainance of the boat.

If you include personal cost like Health Insurance, boat insurance (obligatory),
gasoil - whatever little you use - berthing - what little you use -
It is just looking for the Dorado Islands - i.e. it is a dream and no more than that.
It may work (to a certain extend) in the America' s and some places in the Asian continent.
In Europe, it is the ultimate impossible, unless, maybe, some places in the Black Sea.
I leave this discussion where it belongs - in the America' s and Asia, not my present sailing grounds.
The world is getting overpopulated, overcrowded. The basis of the recent global problems.
I've never heard anyone mention the Black Sea, but I've sometimes wondered about it.
Is it a good or interesting area to cruise?
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