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Old 20-05-2010, 11:12   #211
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I think the difference is what people consider "cruising". Yes, you can stock up on whatever's on sale, head over the horizon and stay at sea until you run out of provisions or something critical breaks - probably cost a lot LESS than $500/mo.
But that way, you don't really get to do much besides be alone in the ocean, and I suspect a lot of us are not sailing to get AWAY from something as much as we are trying to get TO something. There are a lot of things worth doing and seeing in the world, and I suspect I'm not the only one who would rather budget to make my life possible, rather than live to make my budget possible.
I could be way off base here, but it seems like the disagreements in the past few pages ultimately come down to different definitions of what "cruising" is. (Well, and maybe a bit of difference over what is "essential" vs. what is "luxury.")
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Old 20-05-2010, 11:27   #212
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Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Quoting from that paper........extracting the relevant "SIMPLICITY" budget only...

>>snip<<


These are the relevant paragraphs for simplistic low cost cruising. Thanks very much to fishwife for posting the link to this paper.
INDY

>>snip<<
Why did you chop off the other $2500 a year which Beth Leonard budgets for "boat expenses" on SIMPLICITY?

Whatever else is said about the subject, Beth Leonard's book Voyager's Handbook and Beth and Evans' website are both exceptional resources.

-M
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Old 20-05-2010, 11:31   #213
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- - Back to the premise of the OP - discussion of cruising costs associated with "bare bones" cruising of 2 people I offer the following comments - based on cruising internationally in the Caribbean basin. All $ in US$ And totally ignore medical and personal hygiene (that's why God invented garlic), home country costs, communications (except snail mail) and sun-downers involving booze.
- - Food $125 ($75/person/month) - no way Jose. Even in the D.R. where everything is grown/raised locally it cost me $300/mo for one person. (* that includes 2 Presidente's per person per meal). Be prepared to steal water during the night - Potable water costs money and is always in short supply on islands. You could get free water from mountain streams but be aware that all the locals living "up stream" are dumping their wastes into that stream.
- - Customs - $50/month - possible by probably too low by a little. $75 more realistic. D.R. is $95/boat; - BVI is $22; - St Maarten about $140/boat; - French Islands are free; Others about $50/month. -And- if you transit more countries than one per month that ups the cost. So just a little increase in that category.
- - Boat Maintenance $200/month is a wild card. If the boat is new or has finished a major re-fit within 2 or 3 years then yes - otherwise, that figures goes up dramatically as pumps, electronics, sails, canvas, oil, fuel, batteries, dinghy & motors, bottom cleaning, and such stuff breaks, gets injured in accidents, or just quits from old age. The costs of replacement parts and hired repairs is extremely high compared to a decade ago. Any one or two items per month could consume the whole $500. But there is a way and that is to not have any equipment beyond sails, rigging, bilge pump and a battery for lights. Also no MSD beyond a bucket, you poop off the aft deck. Most country's laws require holding tanks and pump out systems if you have a MSD. ** If you don't have it - you don't have to fix it. **
- - Fuel $25/month works out to about 6 gallons (diesel or gasoline) per month. Possible, yes. But that also means infrequently entering or existing harbors/anchorages and staying away from lee shores. Small sailboats with an outboard hung on the stern can most probably stay within this amount. Inboard engines with transmissions, etc. will bust both this item and the preceding maintenance item.
- - Excurions $100 (or $50per person) - probably high or right on as bus rides are typically $2 to $5 per ride for a couple. That means about 20 bus rides per month and a given of walking everywhere possible. Sightseeing nature costs little more than getting there and back on a bus.
- - So the formula for staying under $500/month/2 people seems to be:
- 30 ft or less full keel cutter with no inboard engine (outboard okay) and no electrical systems beyond lighting.
- Young people in body and mind who love exercise and camping out lifestyle. This and the boat size are the biggest determinants to success.
- Avoiding high cost - major tourist islands/harbors unless you can find free anchorages where you will not get attacked. The main problem with major tourist type islands is the food is all imported and is expensive.
First of all Thanks very much to Orrisail for sharing his views....

Now lets look at his assertions and see where we can economize..

- - Food $125 ($75/person/month) - no way Jose. Even in the D.R. where everything is grown/raised locally it cost me $300/mo for one person. (* that includes 2 Presidente's per person per meal).
We currently live in the USVI, where food is much more expensive, we just provisioned Pegasus for 3 months at a cost of $650, including 6 cases of Miller HighLife, 6 bottles of Gin, 3 5L boxes of white wine 6 1.5 L bottles of Red wine, canned tuna, clams, crab, chicken, flour, pasta, tomatoes, etc.
Friends on a neighboring boat said food costs in the DR were much cheaper.. they speak Spanish, I speak Spanish.. perhaps, speaking Spanish makes the difference ??


Be prepared to steal water during the night - Potable water costs money and is always in short supply on islands. You could get free water from mountain streams but be aware that all the locals living "up stream" are dumping their wastes into that stream.
Much better is to make and use a rain catching awning, make friends ashore. we have been offered water that way.. reciprocate by giving them a photo of the boat, inviting them for a sail, or cocktails aboard..

- - Customs - $50/month - possible by probably too low by a little. $75 more realistic. D.R. is $95/boat; - BVI is $22; - St Maarten about $140/boat; - French Islands are free; Others about $50/month. -And- if you transit more countries than one per month that ups the cost. So just a little increase in that category.

St Martin has both Dutch and French sides, the French side is free. You anchor on the French side of the lagoon to avoid lagoon charges. St. Barts is free, Grenada is about $50 / month / boat..

- - Boat Maintenance $200/month is a wild card. If the boat is new or has finished a major re-fit within 2 or 3 years then yes - otherwise, that figures goes up dramatically as pumps, electronics, sails, canvas, oil, fuel, batteries, dinghy & motors, bottom cleaning, and such stuff breaks, gets injured in accidents, or just quits from old age. The costs of replacement parts and hired repairs is extremely high compared to a decade ago. Any one or two items per month could consume the whole $500. But there is a way and that is to not have any equipment beyond sails, rigging, bilge pump and a battery for lights. Also no MSD beyond a bucket, you poop off the aft deck. Most country's laws require holding tanks and pump out systems if you have a MSD. ** If you don't have it - you don't have to fix it. **

You don't have to poop off the aft rail, though some do.. the bucket head as Orrisail mentions avoids many complexities regarding holding tanks etal..
His observation that it is important to refit the boat before setting off, and to have a kit of spares is spot on... This is the reason I posted the pre cruising checklist.. to force wannabees to perform that very essential refit before setting off...
- - Fuel $25/month works out to about 6 gallons (diesel or gasoline) per month. Possible, yes. But that also means infrequently entering or existing harbors/anchorages and staying away from lee shores. Small sailboats with an outboard hung on the stern can most probably stay within this amount. Inboard engines with transmissions, etc. will bust both this item and the preceding maintenance item.

This item is the reason I advocate having a boat that sails well, and developing the skills to sail in and out of harbours, on and off anchor, moorings etc. If you dispense with the engine, you eliminate many expenses which can be redesignated for things like shoreside excursions....

- - Excurions $100 (or $50per person) - probably high or right on as bus rides are typically $2 to $5 per ride for a couple. That means about 20 bus rides per month and a given of walking everywhere possible. Sightseeing nature costs little more than getting there and back on a bus.

This is the one item you must not short change yourself on... this is where you get paid in fun for the trials and tribulation of getting there.. But, in Grenada for example, you can to to any of the waterfalls, or parks by public bus for a tenth of what the taxis charge.. sometimes it takes longer, but you can do it.. as we did..

- - So the formula for staying under $500/month/2 people seems to be:
- 30 ft or less full keel cutter with no inboard engine (outboard okay) and no electrical systems beyond lighting.

You can manage on this in a traditional boat between 28-34 ft with displacement between 5-8 tons. The boat must be a design which sails well, You need a full keel boat with a tiller operated rudder, preferably transom hung, and cutter rig. you must avoid roller furling due to it's maintenance expense, minimize use of engine, You need full keel so you can dryout against a wall and apply bottom paint instead of using the travel lift. Given you are on a budget and $25k is your lmit, you must choose an older boat, you can find great buys on 3 skin Kauri boats in NZ, or you can look at the classic european designs like the Vertue, Folkboat, or in the US the Souther Cross 31, Pearson Vanguard, Oday 34, and NorthEast 32.

- Young people in body and mind who love exercise and camping out lifestyle. This and the boat size are the biggest determinants to success.

AMEN !!!

- Avoiding high cost - major tourist islands/harbors unless you can find free anchorages where you will not get attacked. The main problem with major tourist type islands is the food is all imported and is expensiv...

This is particularly an issue in Venezuela of late... I spent a wonderful time in that country in 98.. including the Gulf of Araba, but now I am told that only Margarita, the Rocques, and Las Aves are reasonably safe.. the fleet has moved on to Colombia and Panama.. which is a great cruising ground...

South America is quite different from central america, much more sophisticated and european, cleaner too. Yet by OECD standards, it is much less expensive, and has home grown food.. gems are Argentina, Chile, Ecuador, now Colombia, Panama, Brazil..

INDY
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Old 20-05-2010, 11:37   #214
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Originally Posted by Mambo View Post
Why did you chop off the other $2500 a year which Beth Leonard budgets for "boat expenses" on SIMPLICITY?

Whatever else is said about the subject, Beth Leonard's book Voyager's Handbook and Beth and Evans' website are both exceptional resources.

-M
I beg your pardon... Beth did not have a simplicity entry of $2500 for anything...
much less other... the figure of $570 is what she gave in the paper cited.

I recommend you re read the paper...

INDY
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Old 20-05-2010, 11:40   #215
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Indy! How do you vomit up such a quantiy of posts per hour? Are they all cut and pastes? Or do you just type like a steno a stream of consciousnes? Or maybe unconscience...

I must say I don't read your reams of stuff. But the coments posted by Springbok and others keep my coming back.

My mouse scroll wheel is about to give up!


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Old 20-05-2010, 11:43   #216
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Originally Posted by Mariness View Post
I think the difference is what people consider "cruising". Yes, you can stock up on whatever's on sale, head over the horizon and stay at sea until you run out of provisions or something critical breaks - probably cost a lot LESS than $500/mo.
But that way, you don't really get to do much besides be alone in the ocean, and I suspect a lot of us are not sailing to get AWAY from something as much as we are trying to get TO something. There are a lot of things worth doing and seeing in the world, and I suspect I'm not the only one who would rather budget to make my life possible, rather than live to make my budget possible.
I could be way off base here, but it seems like the disagreements in the past few pages ultimately come down to different definitions of what "cruising" is. (Well, and maybe a bit of difference over what is "essential" vs. what is "luxury.")
To go off cruising at all, is a lifestyle choice. To visit this thread is a choice.

This thread is directed toward a very specific lifestyle choice, cruising on a very small budget. As you observed, this choice requires lifestyle changes, which apparently are not for you.

As we have reiterated, those who do choose this lifestyle are rewarded by going off at a much younger age than those who don't. OR they are able to go off under circumstances otherwise impossible..

As mentioned above, key to success in this lifestyle is enjoying the simpler pleasures of life, and in finding simpler, cheaper ways to them. So, yes, this thread is not for everyone..

INDY
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Old 20-05-2010, 11:46   #217
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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Indy! How do you vomit up such a quantiy of posts per hour? Are they all cut and pastes? Or do you just type like a steno a stream of consciousnes? Or maybe unconscience...

I must say I don't read your reams of stuff. But the coments posted by Springbok and others keep my coming back.

My mouse scroll wheel is about to give up!


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Hi,

You are in Turkey I believe... as I recall the country is beautiful, historic, and an inexpensive place to cruise..

How about writing about one or two anchorages, harbours in Turkey, what are they like? What do things cost? etc.

I am certain it would be of great help to those like Fishwife and the Portugese sailor, not to mention to me...

INDY
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Old 20-05-2010, 11:53   #218
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Hi,

You are in Turkey I believe... as I recall the country is beautiful, historic, and an inexpensive place to cruise..

How about writing about one or two anchorages, harbours in Turkey, what are they like? What do things cost? etc.

I am certain it would be of great help to those like Fishwife and the Portugese sailor, not to mention to me...

INDY
Well, my my. I found something I agree with INDY about. Color me bemused!

I'd love to hear more about your time in Turkey Mark. Anything at all, in fact. My mother loved the country, but I have never been. Where did you anchor? Worries about the boat when you were touring? Costs? Favorite places?

-M
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Old 20-05-2010, 11:58   #219
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I beg your pardon... Beth did not have a simplicity entry of $2500 for anything...
much less other... the figure of $570 is what she gave in the paper cited.

I recommend you re read the paper...

INDY
You left out the category "boat expenses". Beth writes about 3 boats: simplicity, moderation and high life. The respective total budgets for each are 8,000; 20,000 and 60,000. Those numbers are from a few years back. You cut and pasted only the "living expense category and left out the "boat expense" category. I just wanted to know why (okay, honestly, I just wanted to see if you would say why you did it).

Enough.

-M
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Old 20-05-2010, 12:16   #220
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Old 20-05-2010, 12:54   #221
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This thread is directed toward a very specific lifestyle choice, cruising on a very small budget. As you observed, this choice requires lifestyle changes, which apparently are not for you.

INDY
You are right INDY, and you lost my wifes interest when you said she'd have to crap in a 5 gallon bucket and mine when you said it doubled as a holding tank..
You're one rank dude INDY.........
Hope you dont mind if we never come to visit you on your boat.. atleast befor you've dumped your holding bucket.......
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Old 20-05-2010, 14:03   #222
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OK, if this is too far off topic, Someone with Great Power feel free to remove it.
I am having a hard time getting my head around the logistics of this "Bucket" situation.
Do you just tip it over the side? Seems like it's not very polite to show up, anchor in someone's harbor, and then dump your stuff in their water - not too ecologically friendly to boot. NTM, as much as I love snorkeling & diving, this makes me question doing it anywhere near an anchorage, or even wanting to anchor there ("Hey where'd that dirt on the hull come from?"). But I have more experience with the backpacking world, where "Leave No Trace" is practically gospel.
Or do you just keep everything in the bucket until you are far offshore again, and then tip it out? Which seems like it would lead to, Ummm, "odor issues" in the boat, depending on how long the trip is.
I'm not trying to be difficult, really - I just totally don't get how this system works.
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Old 20-05-2010, 15:13   #223
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Mariness, I, too, am a backpacker. Back when I was sailing my schooner, in the 70s and 80s, there were not quite so many boats out there as there are now. I would chuck out the bucket in the night time. I had the bucket covered by a regular toilet seat in the forepeak [where all heads belong], under the fore hatch. Lanyard on the handle. These days I would not do that. these days I have a composting head [now in my trailer, soon to go into the boat as I finish building her]. However. Many boats out there have flushing toilets with a Y valve to by pass the holding tank. It is not just the bucket-and-chuck-it group who put raw sewage into anchorages. I never snorkle in anchorages. Not only are you in danger of being crapped on, but there are too many small boats running around with outboards, which can turn your back into raw meat if they hit you. Not everybody has row/sail tenders. In fact, very few do. Most are busy fouling anchorages with noise and fuel residue - and swiftly turning propellors ...
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Old 20-05-2010, 15:32   #224
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OK, if this is too far off topic, Someone with Great Power feel free to remove it.
I am having a hard time getting my head around the logistics of this "Bucket" situation.
If you are using a bucket system and you are smart and responsible, and inside the 3 mile shore limit ANYWHERE you use 2 containers. One to capture urine, which is basically salt and water and can be discretely poured over the side with no negative effect on the environment, of the fishes or the folks, at all.

The second container should have a bed of material (like sawdust, mulch, coir, peat) and perhaps for ease of managment a heavy duty plastic bag lining it. When the waste is gonna be solid you should plant it here. This can be taken ashore and disposed of appropriately in the trash. Think about baby diapers. same deal. The solid waste container should have a vented lid, not air tight, to help reduce the smells, and be vented out of the cabin or kept in the cockpit.

or you get or make a composting head which manages the waste more easily than a bucket system.
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Old 20-05-2010, 15:35   #225
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Might I suggest that the bucket is made redundant if you have a composting toilet.

One of many on the market Air Head Dry Toilet: Marine Composting Toilets - Environmentally Friendly Marine Composting Toilet System

As for budget, I've read all sorts of opinions and found actually going cruising, you spend what you have available. If you don't have enough you end up somewhere far from home hoping to sell your boat. That extreme has led to real despair and suicide. I've had personal experience of people who set off following the dream and life dealt them one too many financial blows. I'd hate to stop someone setting off but IMHO $500 a month is living right on the edge.

My 3 cents worth (even my opinion has inflationary costs).

P.
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