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Old 16-05-2010, 06:59   #166
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I'll 3rd Gord.

But one of the most important things I notice is no one here who is actually cruising is saying they do it for $500 per month long term.

If no one here acutally says is being done now,t hen I think you have it.

Unless you are just hiding from society it can't be done. Cruising can't be done on $500 per month long term.

Hide in Central americe like a fugutive can be done easily on $500. But not cruising.
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Old 17-05-2010, 15:27   #167
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Cruising on $500 / month....

Yes, as mentioned above, cruising on $500 per month does require choices being made.

Some of the comments though, are simply peevish...

" I won't stop going to marinas to buy water, look at those who row into a public tap as scum:" I know he didn't say it that way, but it was implied...

There is nothing wrong about rowing into a public tap for free water... just as there is nothing morally right about motoring into a marina to buy water. These are choices..

There is nothing wrong about cruising with your family, but it is beyond the scope of this thread... THIS THREAD IS RESTRICTED TO CRUISING IN A BOAT BETWEEN 28-34 FT ON DECK WITH A CREW OF ONE OR TWO...PEOPLE... PERIOD..

I am not going to defend this thread against scurrilous attacks by those who must or who insist upon cruising in larger boats, with larger crew, or in complicated boats.

However, the point of this thread is to focus upon the essential functions required of both the ship and the crew thereof, with the goal of minimizing the monthly sum required to keep the ship running and the crew functioning.

I hope we will see more experienced people coming forward with ideas they yave used to minimize expenses.. in that light a few of mine...

1. Make a rain catching awning.. we have two.. one goes from the mast aft to the back stays, and the other goes from the mast forward to the staysail stay... in most places we get most of our fresh water this way... other boats I know, plug the scuppers and open the deck plates to fill their tanks...

2. Make your own sails, dodger, weather cloths, courtesy flags. The materials cost far less than the completed items..

3. Do your own engine maintenance, including starter, alternator, and pump repair. You will know that the job was done right and it is far cheaper..

4. Paint your boat yourself... both topsides and bottom...

5. Dry out against a wall and paint between tides... done in NZ all the time.. Hiscock wrote about such a party on a cruise in Dyarchy.

6. Bake your own bread..

7. Use lentils, peas, and beans instead of meat.

8. Entertain aboard... invite your cruising neighbors over for a gam and potluck.. much cheaper than a restaurant.. we did that last night !!

9. Consider engineless cruising... think of the Canadian boat that sailed from Vancouver to BoraBora direct.. they prided themselves on not using the engine at all at sea... unfortunately, water made it over the gooseneck of their exhaust and into the cylinders, so what arrived in BoraBora was a block of rust.. ruined.. Had they added sufficient skill to tack into and through the pass and into the lagoon, they could have saved the cost of the original engine, and the replacement..

10. Get a sailing dink.. build it yourself... make the mast and boom yourself.. the sail too.. greatly extends your cruising range...uses no fuel..

Regarding the Med... We now live and cruise in the Virgin Islands... yet we have found places to anchor, free water taps, and public transport... you simply must look.. ditto for the Med... As I suggested earlier, join a YC at home that has recip privileges in the places you want to go... Sorry to say, that none of the UK, EU folk have made any suggestions in this regard... The Pardeys made a point in their book that the UK cruising club made excellent guides which showed the anchorages, including the free ones.... You need something like this to get away from the madding crowd.... to places just as nice.. but seldom visited... and cheaper..

INDY
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Old 17-05-2010, 15:32   #168
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Again, my point is that it is easy to carp about claiming nothing can be done...

Cruising on a $500 per month budget requires a "can do" attitude, which means taking responsibility for getting things done... Even better is the attitude " The difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer".

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Old 17-05-2010, 16:11   #169
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Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
Cruising on a $500 per month budget requires a "can do" attitude, which means taking responsibility for getting things done...
Even my projected cruising budget is more than $500 per month and there's not many frills in it. It is currently $1200 per month and I'm sure it will increase from there.
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Old 17-05-2010, 17:36   #170
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Detail your cruising budget, cruising itinerary, and the boat you intend to use...

Dear MarkJ ...FYI I have been cruising world wide since 92... it has been in a boat much larger than I recommend... 45 ft and 25 tons.... yet we have gone everywhere on an average budget these `18 years of about $700 per month... We are in an expensive phase of our cruising at the moment, as we are refitting Pegasus for the first time since 02..when we painted her.. and 05 when we refurbished the steering and built 5 new sails for her..
Regarding the sails, I sewed them myself with $2000 of Marblehead sailcloth purchased from KayoSpruce, and $1000 of supplies purchased from Sailrite, and a Brother sewing machine bought in China. Total cost for a Main, two yankees, and two staysails was $3600, or $720 each..

Please keep this in mind..

INDY

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Old 17-05-2010, 17:43   #171
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Places to Anchor....

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Originally Posted by nikki-m View Post
Just going back to the subject of $500 per month, how does that seriously fit in with the practicalities of sailing around the Med, for example?
I assume an average cost of 40 euros each time you need to berth up somewhere - and this needs to be each time you want to buy food, take on water or fuel, or seek shelter from adverse weather. I would have thought that this will be required at least 5 times a month (ie 200 euros), and more likely to be double this amount.

Are there really many free moorings available around the Med, where you can take on food and water? I know there are numerous bays to drop anchor in, but these are normally miles from any form of civilisation!

Surely even the most cost-conscious sailor has to budget some serious funding to cover shelter from the weather, especially in the Med.
Would seem to me that you need to do some research into these matters.... particularly the use of moorings... budget cruisers anchor, they do not use moorings.

I for one, never use a mooring unless I personally have inspected it and determined it is satisfactory for Pegasus.

A good place to start is a purchase of "Serrafyns Mediterranean Adventure" by the Pardeys... They mention the UK cruising guides to the Med.. which you should then get.. Another great idea is to join a UK club whose members cruise the med...

Also, I get the distinct feeling that the Med cruises discussed by you and others are short term holidays of a month or so.. If that is the case, be advised that the pressures of returning to your job will increase your costs over those discussed here, because long term cruisers can budget both time and expenses better.

INDY
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Old 17-05-2010, 17:50   #172
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G'Day Indy,

Well, that is indeed an impressive pre-departure check list! And I reckon that if only boats that had completed it were out here cruising, YOU would be the only one present... that is, if YOU had actually completed it!

While most of the items you mention are laudable, I strongly doubt that any boat out here has done all of them, and to say that one must complete that list to be ready to go cruising is just silly! Do you really think that replacing the keel bolts on spec is a requirement for cruising? Or checking the shaft for trueness? And where do you think one is going to stow this hard dinghy that has a rowing position for every crew member?

What you propose as a requirement for safe departure would have surely prevented Ann and I from ever leaving, and then we would have missed out on 24 years of delightful voyaging.

I would propose that the employment of a competent surveyor to examine ones vessel, and the addressing of any areas judged lacking is surely enough to satisfy even a conservative sailors worries. Let us be reasonable!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II on the hard at Bayview Slipway, Pittwater NSW Oz

I have used surveyors, very competent ones... but none of them can tell if a stainless fastener has crevice corrosion unless they pull it. Most buyers don't want to pay for that kind of inspection, and most sellers won't tolerate fastener removal.

I'll bet you left with a new boat... that is a very different matter from leaving with a 30-40 year old boat..... I stand pat on my recommendations... FYI.. if you are a determined bloke, you can do everything I specified in 6 months.

Question for you and everyone reading.... is 6 months of getting your boat's basic structure sound... a sensible investment... considering your life may depend upon the results???

Regarding dinghy stowage... I have recommended a Chameleon from the board of Danny Green. This dink breaks into 2 nesting pieces which stows in less than 6 ft of space. Dinghies of this size have carried 6 people, I know from personal experience..

Regarding keel bolts... only a few GRP yachts have them.. most have the lead encapsulated in the GRP keel... For those that do.. 40 year old keel bolts must be condemned outright, unless they are pulled and show no electrolysis, which is doubtful considering the dissimilar metals involved.

If your shaft is not true, you will blow the rear seal on the gearbox, and may crack the gear case if it is aluminum. Aligning the shaft is something you need to know how to do, and may need to do, if you remove a drive train component for some reason... like fixing it.....

INDY
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Old 17-05-2010, 18:01   #173
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It can be done !!!!!

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Originally Posted by Strygaldwir View Post
I think the point Indy was making was that if you handle all the longterm maintenance cost up front, it MAY be feasible to do the $500 per month. If you have to handle any of the maintenance while on the trip, it will surely exceed your budget.

Keith

Yes, I am making that point... I am also making the point that it is infinitely CHEAPER to refit your boat in your garden, while you have a job, than in a marina or swinging at anchor... I know,, I have done refits, and builds under all those conditions..

If you truly must go on a budget... budgeting the refit cost has to be important..

However, your cruising budget must allocate about $200 per month to the boat.. less if you have no engine....

If you truly can only afford an older GRP boat costing $25 K or less, than you are buying someone else's problems and your challenge is to FIX THEM so they don't become your problems.

If you only have $ 10 K for your refit, you must do the work your self... the cost of the 5200 and the wire and the sockets and the zincs and the fasteners will be about $1K or so.... for a boat of this size.. That leaves about $ 2 K for sails, which means you get good used ones from Bacon, or you sew your own using cloth from Kayo Spruce.. Then you need to budget about $1K for doing the plumbing and wiring,... yourself... You need to budget about $1 K for paint... UMMMM we are up to $ 5 K at this time... then you need charts, pilots, nav tools, etc.... then you need money to fix the engine if you have one... then you need spares...

INDY
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Old 17-05-2010, 19:32   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goprisko View Post
I have used surveyors, very competent ones... but none of them can tell if a stainless fastener has crevice corrosion unless they pull it. Most buyers don't want to pay for that kind of inspection, and most sellers won't tolerate fastener removal.

For your prospective 500$ a month cruiser, the cost of drawing and replacing the keel bolts might seem a bit expensive, too. Damn few folks we've encountered have gone to the expense, and none of the keels we've heard of failing have been due to fasteners BREAKING. Rather, they were due to structure failures, things that would not have been revealed by drawing the bolts.

I'll bet you left with a new boat... that is a very different matter from leaving with a 30-40 year old boat.....

The boat we left in in 1986 (a retired IOR one-tonner built by Palmer Johnson) was built in 1974, not new then, and was certainly not new in 2003 when we finally changed over to Insatiable II, which was built in 1990. Our cumulative milage is now over 125,000 nm so we've done our time in ageing yachts. We've always done routine maintenance, replaced standing rigging premptively, and carefully inspected things that matter. So far it has worked for us (touch wood).

I stand pat on my recommendations... FYI.. if you are a determined bloke, you can do everything I specified in 6 months.

Indy, I don't really believe that that time scale is realistic except on a very small, simple boat, and even then would involve hiring some of the more technical work out for most folks. This again is not likely with the low budget cruiser who possibly may be further hampered by still having a job during these 6 months.

Question for you and everyone reading.... is 6 months of getting your boat's basic structure sound... a sensible investment... considering your life may depend upon the results???

Regarding dinghy stowage... I have recommended a Chameleon from the board of Danny Green. This dink breaks into 2 nesting pieces which stows in less than 6 ft of space. Dinghies of this size have carried 6 people, I know from personal experience..

But Indy, you specified that the hard dinghy should have a rowing station for every member of the crew. How is this possible in a <12 foot OAL nesting dinghy?

Regarding keel bolts... only a few GRP yachts have them.. most have the lead encapsulated in the GRP keel... For those that do.. 40 year old keel bolts must be condemned outright, unless they are pulled and show no electrolysis, which is doubtful considering the dissimilar metals involved.

But, some 40 year old yachts have bronze bolts... Realistically, the keel bolts on many production GRP yachts (especially of the fin keel sort) do not go clear through the ballast keel, but are cast into the lead. While this in no way prevents electrolysis or more likely, crevice corrosion, it does effectively prevent replacement of the bolts. I'll be the first to admit that while this could lead to me rejecting a specific design from consideration, lots of low budget potential cruisers already own such boats, and are unlikely to cope with the problem. Yet, in the cruising community, few keels fall off.

If your shaft is not true, you will blow the rear seal on the gearbox, and may crack the gear case if it is aluminum.

A shaft that far out of true will surely cause vibration enough to send up warning flags. I'm not suggesting that one should not pay attention, just that premptive shaft removal for inspection (as you specified) is often a very expensive operation to do on spec. Remember that these yachts are in active use prior to departure and have developed a track record including drive train problems.


Aligning the shaft is something you need to know how to do, and may need to do, if you remove a drive train component for some reason... like fixing it.....

I agree completely about alignment and the desireability of knowing how to do it.

INDY
Indy, once again I'll say that while none of the measures that you require for preparedness are bad, I think that you are setting the bar way too high for practicality. IMO, lack of appropriate experience in the sailor is a far more worrisome thing than any lacking in preparation of the yacht itself.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II back in the water and lying Towlers Bay, NSW, Oz
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Old 17-05-2010, 20:26   #175
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Old 17-05-2010, 21:10   #176
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Isn't the time a consideration? It's going to take a long time for me to build my own dinghy - time that could be spent doing many other things, including earning money. It seems like the "in 6 months" estimate is going to require full-time and then some boatwork; seems like that might not be the best way to go if you could use at least some of that time to build up your funds. And that's assuming the skills are already here - since most of us have at least a few gaps in our skills, it might be cheaper to hire someone to do some jobs than to take months or years to learn it adequately. Not for routine stuff/repairs but I don't know that it's the best use of my time to do major one-time (or rare) projects myself.
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Old 18-05-2010, 02:37   #177
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I agree with the sailing dingy, but there are good cheap old ones in need of TLC, which is free. Not only a much greater range for free, but also a pleasure in its self. The problem, of course, is carrying it on a 24-28 footer. Especially in bad weather, but then there won't be a liferaft either, so best to have something! Liferaft's too have a very limited sunshine life, many a near failure after a couple of weeks at sea. It's a big issue for budget limited cruisers, just how do you provide a second flotation device should number one flounder. A Cat? With some mods. I've seen a very tatty example restored in eighteen months. Totally new interior etc. A 28ft cat can provide much more room and deck space for cruising without too many disadvantages. Outboard(s) are adequate for harbour power and can be sized to suit dinghy too. Two on the boat, one moved to the dinghy as needed. And flotation chambers in the main boat and the dinghy.
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Old 18-05-2010, 06:42   #178
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`18 years of about $700 per month...


So you are saying you are trying cut $200 per month off what you spent per month 18 years ago?

Thats basically a 25% reduction in living costs?

Even trying to keep the same budget as last year, let along 2002 budget.


Of course I think its possable, but what I am saying is that you are not cruising in what we would generally think cruising to be... and that includes portion of tourism, travel, cultural learning.
We went to see one of the 7 Wonders Of the World the other day: The Temple or Artimis at Effes (Ephesus). Thats both tourism and learning! We went from a free anchorage by local bus (OK 3 busses each way) bought bottles of water at a supermarket and took our own lunch, bought strawberries. Total cost over $120 for 2 people. An affordable day out, or the months budget buster?

The obvious point is that one must go see something so significant; what I am saying is there are many things so significant to see that form part of what Cruising is all about. Visiting things like museums, forts, castles, historical places, nature parks or areas, zoo's etc etc etc are all things that imho must be done without busting the budget.


I say this because many reading this forum are trying to plan their crusie and we ought not be leading them up the garden path.

When I first went backpacking many years ago I was in the USA (a small country between Canada and Mexico) and I was in Philadelphia and all the backpackers trooped off to see the The Franklin Institute Science Museum. Without doubt the best of its type in the world. One backpacker wouldn't/couldn't afford to go in. Its was $9 then ($15.50 now)
After the most amazing museum experience I made a rule for myself: Afford the damn places!!

There's history and culture to be explored, discovered and examined in every place the anchor is dropped. some are free. The rest must be budgeted for




Bus tickets, Entry, Strawberries $120
Seeing one of the 7 Wonders Of the World? Priceless!





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Old 18-05-2010, 17:46   #179
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Dinghies...

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Isn't the time a consideration? It's going to take a long time for me to build my own dinghy - time that could be spent doing many other things, including earning money. It seems like the "in 6 months" estimate is going to require full-time and then some boatwork; seems like that might not be the best way to go if you could use at least some of that time to build up your funds. And that's assuming the skills are already here - since most of us have at least a few gaps in our skills, it might be cheaper to hire someone to do some jobs than to take months or years to learn it adequately. Not for routine stuff/repairs but I don't know that it's the best use of my time to do major one-time (or rare) projects myself.
I have recommended the stitch and glue design from the board of Danny Greene called Chameleon... that dink can be built on a beach in a handful of weekends...

It takes apart into two halves which nest... I posted the info on the dink earlier.. so page back to see it....

INDY
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Old 18-05-2010, 17:56   #180
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Hiring Jobs Done...

Since I left Valpo, where I knew everyone... I have found that hiring jobs done.. is a waste of time.. and expensive...

Take the Paint Job in Whangerai for example... BrushStrokes SeaTech claimed they had "New Technology" which made my paint system obsolete... baloney.. all they did was put steel primer on my aluminum AGAINST MY EXPRESS specifications to save a few quid, when the correct paint was available from CMP across the river in the next chandlery.

I had to let the stuff weather off on the topsides, had to brush blast off the Copper paint they put on the bottom in Noumea... and have NEVER let a contractor touch the boat since...

Lots of stuff regarding Keel bolts... and how they don't need inspection... etc...

Which is a chore... and looks like something need be said right here, right now... if you are too lazy to do a thorough job of refitting your old boat, and something goes awry YOU LIVE WITH IT!!!

I made the check list to get everyone who stops into this thread thinking about the Basics, again, and to stop fretting over the frivoloities... by which I mean water makers, roller furling, etc.

Regarding then this is only practical in a simple boat... that is exactly what this thread is all about... simple boats between 28-34 ft on deck, with a displacement between 5-8 tons.

If you are thinking of something larger, this thread is definitely not for you, and you belong in another one... If you are thinking of sailing with more than 2 people, this thread is not for you, and you need to go to another one. This is a very specialized thread...

Cruising on $500 / month is a very specialized avocation.

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