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Old 16-06-2011, 19:35   #1651
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Ocean cruising Multihulls were around long before ballasted monohulls. This is how the pacific islands became populated.

The type of multihull I am talking about, are no more high tech, than a bi-plane is from a mono-plane. The number of hulls doesn't make it high tech.

I lived in Key West on my previous two boats, but never on this one. We have only passed through on the way to Central America.

I never burned an ounce of fuel to run our water maker. It runs on our solar panels alone. This has been true for the entire 15 years since we launched, as well as the 12 years that we lived aboard with no other home. Neither the watermaker, nor solar panels, have required additional expenditure in that time. In places like the Bahamas, where water is expensive, this has saved us a LOT over what many folks do. (Buy it in 5 gal. bottles).

My mindset is not at all American, quite the opposite. Most of my good friends are European. The couple in the photo of our sterncastle, are English (him), and Dutch (her). We recently visited our German friends, and last summer went to Scottland.

Seasteading, in our case... is not "homesteading" or staying put. It is living as close to the Earth as possible, making our own water and electricity, growing sprouts when we can, fishing, bartering, going to the local market VS a "grocery store", getting to know the locals in what ever country we're in, and above all else, trying to set a good example wherever we go.

We never had boat or health insurance while cruising, OR an income of any kind. When my wife was working was when I built us a small house and then we built our boat. Now that we have returned to the US, she is working again. While cruising, for many years we lived solely on the money saved from selling our house, which we did shortly after launching our boat. Since we built it ourselves, (and like always, NEVER use debt), there was enough profit to live cheaply for a long time on it. We thus owed no taxes, and our only ongoing expenses back in the US, were for a mail forwarding service.

We never "molded" from sitting in one place. We made numerous trips up and down the East Coast of the US, all over the Chesapeake, numerous trips to the Bahamas, All over the Keys, numerous crossings of the Gulf of Mexico, (rode out a number of hurricanes, one with 150 MPH winds/not at sea). We cruised Central America, went up the Rio Dulce and then took inland trips on the local bus... We later cruised INSIDE the reef on the treacherous eastern side of Andros! On the way to the Eastern Caribbean, we left from Georgetown Bahamas, and sailed non stop to PR in 5 days. (3 out and 2 down) We cruised all the islands as far as Trinidad, where we eventually ran low on our savings. Having given up on the idea of getting jobs down island, we sailed from Trini back to the Beaufort NC inlet, in just 12 sea days. (2 to Dominica, spent the night, then 2 to Culebra, waited two weeks for a weather window... then 8 days to the Beaufort NC inlet.

Over 12 years... We covered tens of thousands of miles, almost all were sailing, and mostly to windward. We also visited over 20 countries, and made friends from all over the world. ALL of this was with NO income, except stopping to work for a short period on a few occasions, and otherwise, living on our savings.

Our boat will sail to weather with the best of 34' "cruising" monohulls, only @ 9 or 10 knots! (Sometimes while in 15' seas). With our Centerboard up, we draw about 3', with it down, we draw 7', and it points very well indeed.

Of the photos above, the top two are the Bahamas. (Away from the touristy islands). The middle two are, living for weeks on end, 7 miles out on the reef of Belieze, eating what I caught every day... On the right is the Dry Tortugas, where, with our watermaker, we had ample water, so could stay as long as we liked, trading with the Cuban fishermen.
The bottom two are another trip to the Bahamas... "Seasteading".

In 15 years, our 18 HP engine needed only two parts. (Neither left us without it's use). They were a fuel lift pump, and raw water pump. Other than a couple of belts & oil, that's it. It is fine to skip having an engine if you like, but I consider it false economy. Without an engine, I wouldn't have had multiple "hidey hole" options, like going up the Shark River, in any of the dozen hurricanes I have been through.

It is true that some marinas charge more for multihulls. By accepting side to dockage, I have never paid a penny more. It is true that haulouts for multihulls cost a bit more. Since I dive on the bottom, and wipe it off every week or two in summer, we can go 5 or 6 years between haulouts, making this cost the same or less. It is also true that they cost more to paint. (With 40 years of experience... I do it myself). This, and the fact that I can nurse an LP paint job along for 10 or 12 years, makes this expense tolerable. BY FAR, most of the expense is not in money, it's in the effort required to simply maintain my boat. ANY painted boat is more hassle to maintain than bare gelcoat, but otherwise, the care with which I built & installed EVERY aspect of the boat, makes it no more expensive in other ways, probably less! Now that we cruise locally, and are saving up again, I hope to have her in tip top shape before we set out again, for another big one.

The years we spent building our house... (which ultimately provided the cruising kitty), and then building the boat, were while living deep in the woods, 5 miles outside of a small country town. IT WAS BEAUTIFUL, serine, & quiet. We loved those years, and I don't consider it a waste. For some, "going cruising" is the ultimate and only goal. For me, this was my third multihull project, I had already lived aboard and cruised for years, and I had just gotten married! Now, @ 36... the goal was also to express my expertise as a boatwright, and enjoy my life in the here and now. IT WAS NOT A WASTED TIME!

Indy, you obviously can't open your mind or your eyes. Boats like ours and couples like us are all over the place. You just don't believe in any way but your way. You actually say that we and our numerous "micro budget" multihull friends DON'T REALLY EXIST, and we haven't really done the things that I say, while living really inexpensively. Like I've said... I'm not making it all up.

I don't in any way encourage "other" cruisers to go the route that I have. That's up to them. It might not work to have a boat that requires a lot of boatbuilding skills, if they don't have them. I AM ONLY TELLING THE CF THAT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO CRUISE, REALLY CHEAP, EVEN ON A SMALL MULTIHULL.

I have no doubt that other micro budget monohullers get around their own boat's shortcomings, just like we learned to get around ours. They both can be cruised as inexpensively as one chooses to. Ultimately, however, it's just about living within one's means, what ever that is.

You can continue to preach that "your way" is the "only" way to do it, but you would continue to be wrong.

To each his own... Mark

Photos:
Tulum, on the Mexican coast
"SEASTEADING"... living off of the sea.
Entering Guatemala's Rio Dulce... Off limits with > 6' draft, or without an engine!
Mayan children, up the Rio
Sailing on Lake Izibal, Guatemala
Exploring the source rivers to the Rio, on the far end of the lake
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Old 16-06-2011, 20:13   #1652
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Watermaker and Solar panels .. pretty high upfront investment. 10y ago that was around $10k, which equals to 20 mo of cruising at $500 !
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Old 17-06-2011, 06:57   #1653
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
Watermaker and Solar panels .. pretty high upfront investment. 10y ago that was around $10k, which equals to 20 mo of cruising at $500 !

Not that bad really
Go to Ebay and look up water makers. They have a lot of military surplus stuff there and you can go to Sun Electronics out of Miami to solar panels reasonably priced that really put out the power.

Solar Panels, Systems, Inverters | German UL 200 Watt $1.39/W

Look there is no right or wrong way to cruise. The only wrong thing is to do IMHO is stay in one spot to long. Then you are not cruising your sitting.

What would you say is the best time limit between cruising and sitting?
I would say it depends on the country. I could stay at a island like PR for 6 months. Or A country like Turkey for at least a year touring it and still not see everything. But i would still leave because you have to keep moving.
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Old 17-06-2011, 09:03   #1654
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Originally Posted by Zonker View Post
Watermaker and Solar panels .. pretty high upfront investment. 10y ago that was around $10k, which equals to 20 mo of cruising at $500 !
The watermaker was a power survivor 35. As I said, it was off of my old Seaclipper 28 tri. We stored it for the years between getting rid of that boat, and finishing the current Searunner 34 project. It cost us $1,800 or so in '89, was essentially "free" on the new boat, and other than a couple of seal kits, has required "0" repairs in the years since. It is still working on the original membrane.

It, as well as the rest of the boat, is powered with our modest 4 solar panels. (Two are very small). Because we only need 40 to 50 Ah per day, this solar array produces a bit over TWICE our energy requirements. This means that EVEN on cloudy overcast days, we remain 100% solar self sufficient. This is true for 90 something % of the year.

ALL TOGETHER, these panels were under $2,000, but then subsidized by the government, as this was an energy saving alternative to our only "home".

Since the watermaker was paid for, that makes being "solar self sufficient" pretty damned cheap! Over 15 years... MUCH less expensive than buying water, ice, and lamp oil. This would also be true if our watermaker had NOT already been paid for.

This is while enjoying a much more comfortable lifestyle. I have been solar self sufficient on all three of my boats, going back to the mid 70s. Just like in land homes, one needs to start off by reducing complexity, size, and overall power need by 300%. THEN going all solar becomes both reliable, simple, AND less expensive than all of the alternatives. Almost everyone I know is skipping step #1, and jumping right to power production... step #2. THIS is why their cost & complexity gets out of hand.

Having "systems" on your boat is NOT "inherently" less reliable OR more expensive, (figured over 20 years). Cars are much more complex than say... in the 60s, but also about 10 X more reliable!

IF you have the knowledge and skills to do steps #1 & 2 "correctly", then it is a more comfortable alternative. IF you don't, then the oil lamp nav lights, bucket head, foot pumps... while buying lots of water, ice, and lamp oil, etc. might be better for you.

It is a personal choice, and both can work well or fail, depending on how you do it.

Regards, Mark
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Old 17-06-2011, 09:19   #1655
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

rofl--i got 3 panels-- 2 rated at 3+ AMPS, ONE AT 130 WtTS---NOT ONE COST MEOVER 50 DOLLARS, AND THE 130 WTT kyocera ONE WAS FEE, NO CHARGE GRATIS.lol....what 2k usd invstment???? find your deals.. they are out there--retail?/ dont pay it-- retail plus 400 percent?/ aint the way to cheap /err inexpensive cruising--LOl know what yer seeking and grab it whenye can---
as far as sitting--if you are in a volitile weather area and water is warm-- stick it out for the season -- might be worth while---willbe stuff to see for a long time....there IS a difference between sitting out a few months and staying for years..LOL..i have met both along my way-- have been both along my way---- is all goood.
watermakers ar estillpricy , especially if ye need to replace filters and membranes and service em. they are , however, useful and i wish i had one-- still looking forthe one inmy range..LOL.. and a windmill for electricity production-- wind is awesome in supplement with solar....i saw my first d400 yesterday--- is silent. i still like the air-X..LOL
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Old 17-06-2011, 10:19   #1656
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

UEZ,,,zap,,knot enough,
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Old 17-06-2011, 10:50   #1657
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

I think manny people have an unrealistic budget for them, If you plan to go mostly veggi it is cheaper. Many people think veggi and want porterhouse. The cruise is to be fun right? not a test of how cheap it can be done, so every person needs to look at there needs and what they will live without. If your beer budget is high then maybe you will have to save up longer
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Old 17-06-2011, 17:19   #1658
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Cruising Wrinkles.....

Mark simply doesn't seem to get the point.... He is trying to dominate this
thread with techniques and equipment ill suited for the financial realities of cruising on a micro-budget.

Watermakers......

Well now.... turns out I have one....

Mine is blue, solid state and has two ports. When not making water, it
provides shade. With this arrangement, I have had water sufficient for our needs since I finished Pegasus in 91. My watermaker uses no power, so I don't have to run a generator or my engine to run it. My watermaker is made of blue sunbrella from a roll I bought 20 years ago, on which is sufficient material to make another when this one wears out.

I did have to maintain it last year... I bought 5 lbs of wax, which I rubbed into the fabric and ironed in.... Also, I had to reinforce one of the rings
that support the thru hull fittings to which the hoses are fixed. Before I forget, I also replaced two band clamps. All this cost me $12

My unit has only one problem. Our cats like the geometry so much they think the ports are the perfect place to do their business. So, when the unit is in operation we have to leash our critters.

However, this may predate a very great idea for cat owners. Sort of a new litter box. One simply makes a funnel of a square of blue sunbrella with a hole at the bottom, and places it in a convenient place for cats to use. A bucket beneath the hole would complete the litter free litter box.

Regarding Solar Panels... They changed dramatically life aboard Pegasus. Before we got them we were using 450 gal of diesel per year. Since their installation in Trinidad last December we have used 50 gallons including that used in motor sailing from Trinidad to Bequia.

I am very careful to not say much regarding our life aboard Pegasus in this thread. The reason is simple. I do not consider our current arrangement micro-budget cruising. Yes, we do manage on Social Security and Food Stamps plus the occasional odd job, but our income is and must be higher than that of a micro-budget cruiser. I do like the way we live, and many of the things we do, but we run a research ship, and medical education facility aboard Pegasus, and our demands for supplies and equipment are beyond micro-budget cruising levels.

So what I have done, is go back to those years when I micro-budget cruised, in canoes, kayaks, dinghies, and sailboats like the Rhodes 19, Cal 24, and Tartan 27, reflect on what worked and what didn't, and integrate those decades of experience across many expeditions, with the narratives of Lin & Larry Pardey who circumnavigated in 24 ft Serrafyn and 30 ft Taleisn, Susan and Eric Hiscock who cruised in 24 Ft Wanderer II and circumnavigated twice in 30 ft Wanderer III, Hal Roth in 35 ft Whisper, Joshua Slocum in his "Voyages of the Libertade" and of "Spray", George Day, Annie Hill, and Kevin aboard his SC31 "Ruth Avery".

I synergized their methods and experiences with mine and this thread expouses the lessons learnt. Basically, keep the boat less than 34 ft, keep the boat simple, use a cutter rig, or Junk Schooner, have robust anchoring gear, hank on sails, hard dink, little or no electronics, and no engine.

People like Mark find this offensive.... That is odd, because I have taken pains to develop a proforma budget, and to justify same. I have also encouraged folks who are living on such a budget to come forward and share their budget and euippage with us. What we get are folks like Mark who insist they can generate water using electrolytic hydrogen or perpetual motion, can run SSB tranceivers on coconut juice and the like, or those naysayers desperately trying to hang on to their floating condos in sizes greater than 45 ft LOA.

There is no free lunch. If you put it aboard, and expect it to work, it will consume spares, fuel, attention or all three. All three cost money.

The question is how much money. If it is solid state, less than if mechanical, if mechanical less than if electrical, if electrical less than if electronic.

So...

Pendulum Fin self steerers cost less to keep going than electronic autopilots
Tillers less than wheels
hank on sails less than roller furling
buckets less than water closets
dish pans less than sinks
jerry jugs less than tanks
long oars less than engines
a rowing dink less than a RIB with 15Hp Yamaha
A 44 # bruce on 5/16 " chain less than a slip or dragging onto a reef or sand bank.
Sufficient natural ventilation and insulation less than Air Con
Ice box less than a fridge
A charcoal brazier or box filled with sand less than a cooker
Hand lead less than electronic depth sounder
Chip log less than a mechanical or electronic log
Windex or burgee stick less than an electronic wind istrument.
Dead reckoning instruments less than a GPS

Where and how you choose to economize is up to you. My task and that of the others with experience is to show you how to go cruising for less, much less than you think.... safely.

Now to Weather....

Regardless of how simple a boat is equipped, every cruising boat needs a barometer and a quartz clock. The clock reminds one when to take observations of the barometer, generally 4 times daily. A log is a logical place to put the readings of the barometer and notes regarding the appearance of the sky including the wind speed and direction.

Every boat should have a book as good as "Reading the Weather" by Alan Watts. Bowditch will not do. The section therein covers instruments and the appearance of seastates, but little of use to the mariner trying to figure out tomorrow's weather For instance:

Cirrus, particularly hooked cirrus -- tells you the most about what is going to happen and gives you the most warning. Their fall streaks point in the direction of the warm air ahead of the next warm front and behind the cold front of a depression. If they point from NW to SE in the north hemisphere, a severe depression is coming. The faster the cirrus moves the stronger the coming depression. This includes those "Rogue" lows missed by state meteorologists, that often bring grief to yachts.

By using Cirrus to provide wind direction at 300 mb and low cloud like cumulus wind direction at low altitude, the observer can forecast, often 48 hours in advance a coming depression. One stands with his back to the gradient wind as shown by cumulus and if the upper wind comes from your left the weather will deteriorate. If the upper wind comes from your right the weather will improve. The directions are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere.

Bruce Van Sant in his book "Passages South" gives the observations needed to predict the location and track of a tropical cyclone with respect to the observer. This info should be known by one and all who cruise the tropics.

Is this worth while?

I think so.... it came in very handy when my SSB died a 2 days out of Santo enroute the Louisiades of New Guinea. There I was crossing the Coral Sea at the dangerous time of year, knowing a large cyclone had formed just east of Santo and was headed somewhere, with no radio.
The next day, I found the old Sony, installed batteries, hooked its headphone jack up to my TNC and had WeFaxes, but until then, it was up to my observations of the sky and barometer to make a forecast and thus an informed decision as to where to go.

Get Alan's book and read it. Bruce's too.

INDY
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Old 17-06-2011, 17:35   #1659
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Re: Cruising Wrinkles.....

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Mark simply doesn't seem to get the point.... He is trying to dominate this
thread with techniques and equipment ill suited for the financial realities of cruising on a micro-budget.
No that's BS, I think maybe it is you who doesn't get the point. Mark spreads his posts around and contributes to many threads. If anyone is trying to "dominate" a thread I think it may be you Indy.

By the way ... Why don't you contribute some of your vast knowledge to other threads??
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Old 17-06-2011, 17:49   #1660
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Wow see a lot of you are missing the point...Just like on land spend what u can.. Live like u want.... How many of you are doing it???? I cruise a 47 foot self built sloop on less than 500 per month on average. I have solar panels etc..... My budget is 1000 but hardly never reach it... Just do it.........
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Old 17-06-2011, 17:51   #1661
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

I think the point was lost about 112 pages ago...
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Old 17-06-2011, 17:53   #1662
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

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Wow see a lot of you are missing the point...Just like on land spend what u can.. Live like u want.... How many of you are doing it???? I cruise a 47 foot self built sloop on less than 500 per month on average. I have solar panels etc..... My budget is 1000 but hardly never reach it... Just do it.........
man after my own heart.....good filosofy. i do it on a 41, loaded with goodies. came that way so i didnt pay any more for them-- i spent 10k usd on my purchase of this.....LOL complete with simrad. and i HATE marinas. LOVE to anchor. HATE to spend money. LOL. find GOOOOD stuff for hardly anyhting at all..... loving it much!!!
and i cook well. and fish..LOL... clean em meself also..LOL--i dont even pay retail for food if i can help it..LOL
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Old 17-06-2011, 18:01   #1663
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

I hate to pay full price... Zeehag... Mine boat came in 55 gallon drums of resin hahaha, so I have to put everything on that I have, but what do I need?? I don't even have depth sounder still use lead line... Funny thing they have these numbers on the charts and I figured out if it says more than 6.5 feet i'm good...hahahaha And if I had a sounder it would only confirm that i was on the bottom and not a container....

How do you start a survey here? I want to know how many miles or contiguous sailing time some of you have... That would be fun.... I have a warped snse of humor
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Old 17-06-2011, 18:06   #1664
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

i have only 7500 miles of long range cruising---many more if ye count the ones prior to cruising but are deliveries on west/worst coast...... this trip--- 1250 or so .... from ensenada....90 from sd to esenada
i covet yer resin!!!!! i ned about that much for mine formlessa....lol
rofl about the depth sounder--is also a fishie finder, but they lie many times.... abou tthe fishies, that is-- depth is good....-- when i attach my garmin to a new transducer, would you like my apelco fishfinder depth sounder thingie???? would include the transducer too, btw... would be cheeper than ye think......LOL.....never forget feet not Fathoms inland..LOL

i fergot--the damn thing shows the shape of the bottom.... is reallly coool
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Old 17-06-2011, 18:10   #1665
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Re: Cruising on $500 per Month . . .

Although you say you only have 7500 miles under ye keel you sail and live on the boat,,, that sometimes overrides the miles, months or years of contiguous sailing is more important when you talk budgets....
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