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Old 07-12-2017, 09:49   #76
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Most of the responses including the original post, just sound like a bunch of Americans trying to apply their nanny state liability laws onto the rest of the world countries. If the same Americans were to ever venture out to other countries, they'd quickly find many more issues to complain about like missing guard rails almost everywhere, or ancient walkways without wheelchair cutaways. Hey... we come across unmarked junk and large boulders in the water all the time while out cruising, what do you expect? It's not the local government's fault if we crash into it if we decide to dinghy across at 20mph in the dark and hit it. Many times we've almost hit markers at night, but it wasn't an issue because we were only going about 5mph at the time, and saw the object in time to steer around it. We also use a high power flashlight.

People have forgotten how to watch where they're going.... It's not some foreign government's fault when someone plows into something at night, everyone needs to watch out and basically drive safely within the conditions.
Don't blame all of us Americans. We are over regulated and need torte reform. Oh, and need to own up to individual stupidity.
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Old 07-12-2017, 13:47   #77
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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But, there are two problems that I would like to highlight:

1/ Many people are driving their dinghys too fast and paying too little attention. I can not understand why so many people get off of a sailboat that averages 6 or 7 Knots and feel that they need to go 20Kts to get to shore ?
I lost three anchor marker floats over the summer to dinghys that were going too fast to spot them. We also had several scares with our children swimming around the boat being buzzed by high speed dinghys.

2/ No one seems to care that obviously intoxicated people are operating high powered dinghys, most frequently at night. Just spend an hour on the dock at the Tiki Bar late in the evening and you will certainly see a few examples.
What he said.
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Old 07-12-2017, 14:26   #78
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

We don't know the details of this specific accident and I feel for the family of the deceased. That said, what do we learn or does it remind us of?

1. Objects, markers, buoys need to be marked or lit to be seen well day and night.

2. Dinghies need adequate lighting if they're to be used at night.

3. There's a common practice that is very bothersome. People who hopefully wouldn't operate their boat drunk, get in the dinghy and go ashore and come back to it drunk and jump in it to come back to the boat. They're just as guilty of operating a boat under the influence as if it was the main boat or any other boat. There isn't a "dinghy to your boat" exception. People doing this run into buoys or markers, fall in the water, run into other boats.
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Old 07-12-2017, 15:38   #79
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

Not wearing my moderator hat for this at all.

I think Boatman 61's idea of two headlamps, both with their white lights, one facing astern, the other looking forward is very practical.

Background: frequently while cruising, one finds oneself going home to the big boat after dark. Dinghies--irrespective of laws--are most commonly unlit, completely. But the key thing here, is even if your dinghy is correctly lit, it is impractical to think it will keep you from being hit. The key to staying alive in the dinghy is...**AWARENESS**.

If you drive your dinghy in the manner Boatie suggested, with the frequent 360 deg. lookout, your lights will attract the eyes of the folks who are also up and about, and you may spot them, as well as unlit hazards of whatever type.

One of the most common failures of dinghy driving I see is failure to look astern, and I am told it is a common failure of cruising helmspeople as well. Danger can come from any point of the compass, and more than one at a time. One's lookout in populated areas (which is most of where folks are) is really important!

Ann
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Old 07-12-2017, 16:05   #80
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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Is his boat for sale?
Tacky and SO unnecessary, crass in the extreme!
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Old 07-12-2017, 16:21   #81
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
Not wearing my moderator hat for this at all.

I think Boatman 61's idea of two headlamps, both with their white lights, one facing astern, the other looking forward is very practical.

Background: frequently while cruising, one finds oneself going home to the big boat after dark. Dinghies--irrespective of laws--are most commonly unlit, completely. But the key thing here, is even if your dinghy is correctly lit, it is impractical to think it will keep you from being hit. The key to staying alive in the dinghy is...**AWARENESS**.

If you drive your dinghy in the manner Boatie suggested, with the frequent 360 deg. lookout, your lights will attract the eyes of the folks who are also up and about, and you may spot them, as well as unlit hazards of whatever type.

One of the most common failures of dinghy driving I see is failure to look astern, and I am told it is a common failure of cruising helmspeople as well. Danger can come from any point of the compass, and more than one at a time. One's lookout in populated areas (which is most of where folks are) is really important!

Ann
It’s a good idea, well at least it sounds good and I commend Boatman for proposing it....BUT we’ve tried it and it doesn’t work. The idea will however cause nightblindness to everyone aboard the dinghy. A high power LED dive type flashlight pointing forward near the bow works best along with permanent dinghy nav lights.
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Old 07-12-2017, 16:39   #82
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pirate Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

Well if you've passengers its a different ball game.. get them to hold the lamps one fixed forward and one facing aft with instructions not to blind the helmsman..
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Old 07-12-2017, 17:33   #83
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
The simplest solution is a headlamp that places the light on your forehead.. shines where you look.. and that looking should cover 360 degrees if your doing it right..
Good range and easy to stow.. most sensible cruiser have at least 1 for deck work on dark nights..
Two would give you a white light fore and aft..
Sounds ok, just go easy on spinning your head around, you might get mistaken for a lighthouse
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Old 07-12-2017, 22:33   #84
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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ok so a buoy was unlit. when does responsibility f or our own actions become a govt issue?
a cruiser speeding perhaps without proper lighting so he could not even think of seeing a buoy that does not move.
perhaps a light would have prevented the buoy from jumping in front of dinghy.
what was guy doing speeding unsafely in an anchorage with a known obstruction in his path?
was the cruiser dronk?. usually those hitting immovable objects in dinghies at night are somewhat tipped over.
it is sad the man died.
is also sad the man disregarded safety practices and sped thru a dark anchorage blindly, obviously. had he not been blindly speeding, perhaps he would not be dead.
it is our cruising responsibility to pay attention.
no one is our nanny.
we need to maintain responsibility for selves. once anyone's govt removes our remaining freedoms, we are doomed. this is a lifestyle demanding our full attention. we live on the edge. it is our own responsibility to save our own lives. seems most forget this.
i have yet to see any safety measures taken in anchorages by cruisers in dinghies. folks speed in darkness.
no lights.
no flashlight to light the obstructions we K|NOW are there even though perhaps unlit.
that man knew that buoy was there--he disregarded safety rationales and sped anyway , right into the damned thing. fatal oopsy. no one is to blame but himself.

i , too, have watched as drunken friends attempt to maintain themselves in dinghies in darkness. eventually they die. their own responsibility as they float face down in a bay. missed footing between dinghy and boat.
not many have been tooo dronk to see the impending doom buoys in their path. moon has been quite bright these days.

i understand why you are angry, as this man was seemingly your buddy, but face it, we each take responsibility for our actions, stupid and otherwise.
my sympathy lies with his family.
i cannot condone the practices cruisers keep with speeding and no lights in an anchorage.
count the lit dinks speeding by. how many actually use the safety regulations and how many disregard them. remember the speed limit in an anchorage is for one's own safety not bureaucratic bs.
it is difficult to represent a dead guy when he was disregarding laws of safety.

IFF he was NOT dronk and IFF he DID have lights and used em, then there is an issue. perhaps his eyes didnot work. i have yet to know a sober soul drive into a deadly situation voluntarily.

what the govt will say is he should have been sober and should have had a light. and used it.
perhaps when you folks demand safety assistance the govt may require helmets while running dinghies. would that help?
this is liken to a gun issue-- isnot the gun nor the buoy that kills, it is the loose nut behind the wheel, same as in car wrecks. wake up cruisers we are not out here to be babysat.
get together with the cruisers there and have safety meetings. grab a can of reflective paint and mark the buoy, with permission of the govt. they may be pleased someone is helping instead of making demands.
request permission before defacing buoy....
helpful hint--donot be in aggro affect when dealing with govt of nations you are visiting. have politeness and courtesy and deal with the issue in a positive manner.
perhaps the cruisers can come up with a solution not based on govt participation.


Bad analogy... RIBs are a means of water transportation, yet guns are a tool designed solely for killing people. When they do so, they are functioning exactly as designed!

In the US, (the gun death Capitol of the world), we have 33,000 gun deaths per year, and it IS because of the guns.

Without them, confused, scared, angry, inebriated, or mentally disturbed people, seldom kill.


This practice of getting a dinghy on plane, at night, is foolhardy at best, but his death is sad indeed!
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Old 07-12-2017, 22:55   #85
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

I don't rely on being seen, this attitude is very disempowering. It's upto me to see objects and other boats and keep out of their way, I don't care what's right or wrong here, I care about being unharmed, putting oneself in the best position to not be hurt is vital, being aware of the potential hazards.

Speed has become a big problem, dinghies, jet skis, local speed boats. In my travels I've seen two people hit by fast boats, one killed, critically injured, I saw someone nearby hit by a jetski the other day.

I have know idea what outboard this guy was using but I would bet it wasn't a 3.5hp, a small engine, how much damage to himself could he of done? I have a 15hp & a 3.5hp. The big one only gets used for long distance or bad conditions, I just don't need the speed.
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Old 07-12-2017, 23:49   #86
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

Two thoughts: 1. High speed is not always necessary for a fatal injury. 2. I've had more than one motorcyclist tell me, "I don't drive as if all the other drivers are blind, I drive as if they are all trying to kill me!"
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:50   #87
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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Sounds ok, just go easy on spinning your head around, you might get mistaken for a lighthouse
Funny boy, lol
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:34   #88
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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Well if you've passengers its a different ball game.. get them to hold the lamps one fixed forward and one facing aft with instructions not to blind the helmsman..
In theory, what you say sounds fine but in practice I've found that even well intended passengers almost always inadvertently shine the light in my eyes or onto a part of the dinghy that reflects the light back into my eyes, ruining my night vision. Also, having a light constantly on allows me to see as far as that light extends and in the direction it's pointed, but destroys my ability to see things further away or in other directions unless they are very brightly lit.

So, unless it's an overcast night in a remote area with no shore lights reflecting off the clouds so it's pitch black and I am forced to use a light to see even vague outlines 10' away, I usually hold an unlit flashlight in my hand or have an experienced passenger do it, and proceed very (VERY) slowly to my destination. Once our eyes are adjusted to the darkness I can usually see surprisingly well on all but the darkest night, and if I have a question about something we are approaching or want to alert another boat to my presence, I hold the flashlight outboard from the side of the dinghy so it doesn't reflect into my eyes and briefly shine the light in the direction of the object in question.

With LED lights that use very little power there's no reason not to leave on the "back porch light" before going ashore so the boarding platform on the stern of my boat is lit up when I return. Once I spot that light as I leave the dock in my dinghy, if I proceed directly towards it, following its reflection in the water, I know there is nothing big directly between me and it. Of course there could be low lying things like mooring/fishing buoys or anchor rodes just below the surface, or temporarily floating docks that are unlit and may be only 1' above the surface, or dolphin strikers or looong bowsprits 4' above the water just waiting to bonk me in the head, so I am on the lookout for those things and proceed slowly, slowly, until I arrive at my destination.

I realize that I'm supposed to show either nav lights or an all around light at all times in a dinghy to make myself visible to others, but when it's at the expense of my ability to see and avoid obstacles that I might run into, I prefer to run dark and preserve my night vision so I can see things from every direction, from close up things to far away things. But to make this work, you've got to always proceed very slowly and constantly have your head on a swivel and have a bright light close at hand to make yourself known when necessary or to investigate details of obstacles that you can't quite see without more help than ambient light is providing.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:53   #89
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

I have been in and out of the restaurant at Prickly Bay a hundred times. The reason for the deaths is that the dingy operators go on a plane before they have cleared the dangers that are less than 100 yds from the dinghy dock. It is the equivalent of driving in the pub car park at 60 mph before you have reached the road.
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:10   #90
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Re: Cruiser killed in Grenada

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In the US, (the gun death Capitol of the world), we have 33,000 gun deaths per year, and it IS because of the guns.

Without them, confused, scared, angry, inebriated, or mentally disturbed people, seldom kill.
There were 3.7 people per 100,000 murdered in 2013 with guns in the USA. And there was a person behind each one of the guns used in each gun murder.

Consider that the drug overdose death rate in the USA is roughly 20 per 100,000 and increasing.

Also consider the fact that confused, scared, angry, inebriated, or mentally disturbed people, seldom kill.
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