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Old 10-02-2016, 21:40   #16
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

The post which said "I'd follow one if I could" doesn't seem to realize that the primary asset these ships have is speed. They are not designed to cross the North Atlantic or drive thru a storm, they're designed to outrun or avoid them. This clown decided to go thru one (conscious decision) and in doing so jeopardized his ship and his passengers.

If you want to see the difference between a ship like "Anthem of the Seas" and a true ocean crossing cruise ship, look at the new "Queen Mary II". Very different lines, very different intent.

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Old 11-02-2016, 03:01   #17
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

Never forget talking to a captain of a cruise ship in Antarctica. I had far better weather info than him on my yacht. His internet was down so he was running on two day old weather charts. I had up to date gribs, and HF weather Fax charts.

I offered him a copy of the latest stuff but he didn't seem remotely interested...
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Old 11-02-2016, 03:41   #18
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

http://afloat.ie/port-news/port-and-...in-dublin-port

An Irish ferry went through a storm on Sunday and wrecked a bit of cargo. Not sure how dangerous it was but if trucks are tripping over it must have been fairly hairy.
No excuse here either. The storm was well reported before hand

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Old 11-02-2016, 04:32   #19
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Never forget talking to a captain of a cruise ship in Antarctica. I had far better weather info than him on my yacht. His internet was down so he was running on two day old weather charts. I had up to date gribs, and HF weather Fax charts.

I offered him a copy of the latest stuff but he didn't seem remotely interested...
Guess it would have been an insult to his big boat magnificence to accept something from a lowly little blow boat.

I have asked the same question as A64. Where do they get these guys. One would think that there are plenty of really sharp, on the ball, experience ship captains out there. For a job running a big, expensive cruise liner the owners could have their pick of dozens of applicants for any job and weed out the incompetents and idiots.

Maybe the jobs are more politics with the cruise line and PR with the passengers than real skill. After all, if you ran a cruise line who would you rather have hobnobbing with the passengers; a cool Italian like the captain of the Costa Concordia or some scrawny boat captain that dances on the beach in a Speedo, drinks booze and chases women?
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Old 11-02-2016, 07:24   #20
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

I would have thought there would be two Captains, not equal in rank as I don't think that would work.
One Capt can be old, ugly, even a grumpy guy or gal, but he / she runs the boat.
The other is a handsome guy, or gal who is very social and good at hosting, but has the title, so VIPs can be impressed at eating at the Captains table.


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Old 11-02-2016, 08:21   #21
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Never forget talking to a captain of a cruise ship in Antarctica. I had far better weather info than him on my yacht. His internet was down so he was running on two day old weather charts. I had up to date gribs, and HF weather Fax charts.

I offered him a copy of the latest stuff but he didn't seem remotely interested...
In the US we have th Military Sealift Command. I had a train ride with a captain. He was told very precisely where to anchor, and was monitored, but he complained that they didn't have as much or as updated gear as many yachtsmen.

Still that's no excuse in this particular case.
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Old 11-02-2016, 16:18   #22
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

There is, or has been a bridge team managment issue on ships. All the ultimate responsibly and all the major decision-making has historically sat with the captain.

The amount of discussion and collaboration with the mate or mates has been entirely up to the captain, and often minimal.

This lends itself to a situation where the captains word is law, his decisions aren't questioned or discussed. There is no power of veto, no checks and balances anywhere.

Gradually this is changing. Bridge team managment is focusing more on an airline approach with more of a pilot/copilot dynamic. How this will effect the captains roll in the future is yet to be seen.

Being ambitious, over confident with an unhealthy dash of arrogance is a very good way to quickly rise through the ranks. If you don't start out with these qualities, you quickly need to acquire enough of them to fool everyone.

I also think that as we get more experienced we really all have to watch out for Hubris. I've seen and heard of a number of very experienced yachties come unstuck as well by getting to cocky. The more we get away with stuff, the more we expect to be able to get away with it, over time we start to believe our sh** don't stink, and all those times we got lucky where due to our exceptional skill, not just a lucky dice roll in our favour.

A little bit of fear can be a very good thing.

I've sailed with a few very bad captains, lots of ok but not impressive ones and only a handfull of extremely good captains on big ships. The ratio of mediocrity vs excellence was a factor in my decision to work on smaller boats.

I think the culture is changing forbid the better.

I'd love to see a proper risk analysis proceedure for seamanship. At the moment seamanship still mostly gut instinct, which is funny given that taking out the trash now days requires a full job safety analysis, but taking a ship to sea is not subject to any rigorous systematic analysis.



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Old 11-02-2016, 16:31   #23
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

http://www.woodenboat.com/lessons-bounty-0

This is a great example of some sort of systematic risk analysis to seamanship. And the problems we face with Bridge team managment.

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Old 11-02-2016, 21:50   #24
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

Good Morning America interviewed the passengers from Anthem of the Sea. Seems the cabins to have would be the lower level balcony cabins where you would be scared to death as waves pounded the boat.

Seems these people were really scared. Like looking for their life jackets. I know if I wanted a life jacket on a cruise ship thinks got to be bad.



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Old 11-02-2016, 23:37   #25
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
The post which said "I'd follow one if I could" doesn't seem to realize that the primary asset these ships have is speed. They are not designed to cross the North Atlantic or drive thru a storm, they're designed to outrun or avoid them. This clown decided to go thru one (conscious decision) and in doing so jeopardized his ship and his passengers.

If you want to see the difference between a ship like "Anthem of the Seas" and a true ocean crossing cruise ship, look at the new "Queen Mary II". Very different lines, very different intent.

Rick
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You ain't kiddin:

Anthem of the Seas




Queen Mary II


Besides being butt-ugly, the Anthem compares negatively (from the consumers point of view; from the owners, though, I suppose [short term] positively) in several ways:

Anthem

167000 tons
55000 HP propulsion engines
18776 HP bowthrusters?!
4905 maximum capacity passengers

Queen Mary

148000 tons
157000 total HP
2620 passengers

Yet another example of capitalism run wild... you couldn't pay me to sail on that Anthem, she (it?) just looks dangerously unseaworthy, compromised captaincy or not.

I wonder what it would be like on one of those 16 lifeboats on the Anthem, along with the other 300 hysterical evacuees (not counting crew)?
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Old 12-02-2016, 01:55   #26
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

This was probably no different what a cargo ship captain having bean counters at the main office breathing down his neck not to waste fuel, etc. A friend who was a cargo ships' captain for many years told me that this is a little dirty secret of the business to which they rarely admit (especially when not going out of their way to assist another ship) is the huge fuel bill incurred in such detours (on top of the expensive delays, etc). Now the bean counters will never officially demote the captain in such situations but will make sure that he gets at the end of the pecking line order in the company.

Here the thinking was probably the choice between $$ wasted on add'l fuel needed to outrun the storm vs. potential liability to passengers hurt by being in the middle of the storm.They took their chances and most likely lost as I expect the plaintiffs' lawyers making a big line already to greet them at the dock.

PS btw the captain telling me that "little dirty secret" was actually shoved aside once by the bean counters as he is deeply into the old school sailor ethics and would not endanger passengers or crew just to save the company some $$.
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:07   #27
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
You ain't kiddin:

Anthem of the Seas




Queen Mary II


Besides being butt-ugly, the Anthem compares negatively (from the consumers point of view; from the owners, though, I suppose [short term] positively) in several ways:

Anthem

167000 tons
55000 HP propulsion engines
18776 HP bowthrusters?!
4905 maximum capacity passengers

Queen Mary

148000 tons
157000 total HP
2620 passengers

Yet another example of capitalism run wild... you couldn't pay me to sail on that Anthem, she (it?) just looks dangerously unseaworthy, compromised captaincy or not.

I wonder what it would be like on one of those 16 lifeboats on the Anthem, along with the other 300 hysterical evacuees (not counting crew)?
The picture of Anthem pretty much answers the question as to why lately these seem to be captained by clowns. Why would a real experienced and thoughtful captain would agree skipper this ridiculous highrise of a vessel. I know enough, with my liberal art only non-engineering education, that this top heavy structure is just a disaster waiting to happen if the right (or actually wrong) conditions are there. Another example of the craft and experience being replaced by the bean counters and the MBAs with zero nautical sense.
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Old 12-02-2016, 04:32   #28
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

Right or wrong, at the end of the day the ship came through what looked like some very nasty stuff with pretty minor damage. The video footage looks impressive. Glad I wasn't out there in any yacht, no matter how seaworthy.

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Old 12-02-2016, 05:17   #29
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

Just read the QM2 has a cruising speed of 28.5 kts. The last two cruises I was on the cruise speed was approx 17 kts.

Yes, I would rather be on the lower more streamlined faster QM2.

But people in cold NJ trying to get out of the cold weather so not have that option. On my two cruises it was very annoying being on a ship with so many other people. I was always in someone's way or visa versa.
Worse sailing day was in 10' to 15' seas and that was a non event.

I do not know all the hidden pressure to stay on schedule but agree there is massive amount. From ice road truckers to the old space shuttles. Heck the very worse transportation decision ever had to be the Challeger Space Shuttle. But people/stuff have to be places on certain dates. And getting them there on time is a business.

Trying to sail a top heavy cruise ship through a storm is just a bad business decision.

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Old 12-02-2016, 05:53   #30
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Re: Cruise Ship hits rough seas

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Ah yes
as they say a sailors worst enemy is the calendar.....
and of course selfish greedy owners pressuring their servants to make deadlines.
Captains need to learn like Nancy Reagan always said "Just Say No"
She said yes... Or at least "get it over with if you must"... hence Ronny Jr. and Patti

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...and my favourite of all time, a few years ago.....



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Yes, very similar.

Hubris is the nice, diplomatic term for an up-himself wanker who should never be in charge of peoples lives.
+1 Mark !
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