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Old 09-04-2014, 21:11   #91
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

To me it really don't matter ! There is no price for life ! It is a service that is for ALL !
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Old 10-04-2014, 07:49   #92
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

Some of you need to double up on your aluminum foil hats because you must be receiving signals still.

Does anyone really believe that services like resues should a for fee service? That is just insane thinking
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Old 10-04-2014, 07:57   #93
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregoryK View Post
I find it amusing that none of this was raised when when Capt Walbridge sailed an ageing. leaky, short handed, poorly maintaned wooden vessel into the path of a hurricane. There was no hue and cry to bill Wallbridge, his estate or the owners of the bounty for that rescue. That rescue was actually done in the teeth of hurricane Sandy, executed at the very edge of the Coast Guard's capabilities and range of operations.

But because it's some family whose child gets sick offshore, and whose parenting choices we disapprove of, they ought to be billed.

Makes perfect sense.
I seem to remember him catching quite a bit of criticism, actually, and the families of some of the crew are suing his estate.
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Old 10-04-2014, 08:04   #94
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Some of you need to double up on your aluminum foil hats because you must be receiving signals still.

Does anyone really believe that services like resues should a for fee service? That is just insane thinking
I'm pretty sure nobody here said that. So I guess it's a bring your own tin hat situation.
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Old 10-04-2014, 10:58   #95
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

Best hat is always the one self made

Probably also works for tinted glasses
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Old 10-04-2014, 11:08   #96
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

Dave-
"In my opinion, the next best way to do it would be as a charity like the RNLI. This has the benefit of putting the costs on those who use the service, while allowing people to pay what they can afford, and not making contributing anything a condition to receiving the service in case of need. "

The closest we've had to that in the Colonies was back in the late 1600's and 1700's when you may recall (I know you've been around that long!(G) that there were only volunteer fire companies in the US. And they were called "companies" because they were 100% private businesses.

IF you bought fire insurance from a private fire company, if you thought that was worthwhile, and then your building caught fire, the companies that responded first would look to see if you had their plaque by your door. If you did, it proved you were covered and they would go to work putting out your fire and rescuing your goods and family. Sometimes.

If you did not have their plaque, negotiations (ergh, extortion?) began and you could dicker over what they would charge, while your stuff was burning down or being stolen.

Meanwhile the collateral damage was that the embers would start other buildings on fire and the neighbors would be burning down--regardless of whether they had insurance, because you hadn't bought it. Most of the major western cities have burned down, at least 1/4-1/3 of the entire city, from incidents like that, at one time or another. Most of them also have building codes that prohibit wooden structures, as a result of that problem.

So, allowing each person to decide whether they want to support rescue and life saving? It might work on that quaint isle of potty gardeners, but here among the barbarians, it just won't work. It won't provide the kind of massive and robust response that is needed to span most of a globe 24x7.

And I say this as someone who generally is against creeping socialism and the nanny state, and in favor of Darwinian evolution. And awards.

Although I'm also very much in favor of doing things the way NH has chosen to do them: If you need rescue because you've ignored warnings and done something stupid, you'll get a bill. There's a difference between "reasonably prudent" and "runs with scissors, many scissors, and slippery shoes."
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Old 10-04-2014, 11:13   #97
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
I seem to remember him catching quite a bit of criticism, actually, and the families of some of the crew are suing his estate.
Oh catching flak yes, but no one suggested the CG should have billed him, his estate or the Bounty owners for the costs of the rescue.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:38   #98
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

There's at least one non-governmental organization in the US providing rescue services to anyone in need within their service area - Smith Point Sea Rescue. The organization is manned by volunteers and funded through donations and fund-raisers. They get no financial support whatsoever from any governmental body.

I've never had to call on them, thankfully, but have heard their operations underway on VHF from time to time.

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History of Smith Point Sea Rescue

Smith Point Sea Rescue had its origin in the heart and mind of Dr. Robert E. Beatley and his wife, Vera. The desire to form this squad followed the successful rescue of a father and two young children. This threesome had spent a chilly November night hanging onto the bow of a sunken boat in the bay near Reedville. In the fall of 1973, Dr. Beatley's dream came true. Smith Point Sea Rescue was born.

Smith Point Sea Rescue, Inc. was officially organized in 1974 as a volunteer sea rescue service. Its 49 members comprise the last remaining Volunteer Sea Rescue unit on the Chesapeake Bay.

Members share duties year round, 24 hours a day to maintain equipment, conduct training, and respond to search and rescue missions. Smith Point Sea Rescue covers the middle Chesapeake Bay between the Lower Potomac River and the Rappahannock River. All members are volunteers.

During its 34 years, Smith Point Sea Rescue has gone from rather humble beginnings, where members volunteered their boats as well as themselves, to its current formidable and prestigious unit. Today it has three boats to operate rescue services.

Presently serving Smith Point Sea Rescue is a

42 foot Provencial (Rescue I)
22 foot Pamlico (Rescue II)
27 foot Blackfin (Rescue III)

Rescue I and Rescue II are kept on Cockrell's Creek off the Great Wicomico River, while Rescue III is kept at Olverson's Lodge Creek Marina and serves the lower Potomac River.

Smith Point Sea Rescue, receives no monetary support from any state or governmental agency. Funds are derived from donations and fund raising events such as the Oyster Roast and the Reedville Fishing Derby. Smith Point Sea Rescue has a tax-exempt status [501 (c)3] from the Internal Revenue Service.

Smith Point Sea Rescue, is pleased to help boaters in their time of need. It monitors VHF Channel 16. Sea Rescue may also be reached through the Northumberland Sheriff's office at 804-580-5221 or 911.
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Old 11-04-2014, 05:55   #99
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

Posting without reading first, want to get my thought down before it gets lost and needs rescue.

For MH370 the US alone has acknowledged over 7.3 million in costs, to date. That is at best a recover effort. Total costs must be many times that.

It strikes me that our supper sub hunters are having a damn tough time finding a box that wants to be heard.

It further strikes me that, to make an analogy, this is a bit like turning a lost hat into an impromptu MOB drill. Good practice for these guys.

Ditto the rescue for Rebel Heart, good practice.

So here is one instance where the public is having the opportunity to see and evaluate for themselves ( to some degree) the coat effectiveness of these nifty military programs.

Priceless.

The US military costs taxpayers over $1 million per minute. Consider these rescues and recoveries public QA exercises. NG did pretty good. Sub hunters?
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Old 11-04-2014, 07:56   #100
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

"costs, to date. That is at best a recover effort."
Not really. The recovery is only co-incidental to the criminal or safety investigation as to "Why did this plane fall down" which is the real issue at this point. If they can figure out the "why" part without recovery, they won't need to recover anything. But it is hard to do forensic analysis of failed machines, without having access to the machine.

Subhunting is a very different chase. Submarines leave large long wakes, and even when submerged they leave large thermal wakes. They have large magnetic signatures, and they even create a pressure wave that lifts the sea level above them to a surprising extent. The P3's and other hunters look for all this stuff on a "gross" scale.

The pingers? Just make a tiny noise, very different from the machinery noises and hull noises that the hunters are targeting for submarines. Kinda like asking why a safari guide can't point out field mice. They can--it just isn't what they're out there for. Bear in mind, the pingers have a short range, and they are far far deeper than any manned submarine would be found at. If they were within a thousand feet of the surface it would be a very different ball game.

I'm more curious about why everyone is being so reserved as to what pings are being heard now. They're not saying they've heard box pings, they are saying unspecified "other" devices make the same kind of pings. Other? Really? And they have no idea what those other pingers might be??
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Old 11-04-2014, 17:18   #101
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Costs of Rescue...

British news sources are reporting the pings to be the voice recorder and data recorder respectively.

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Old 11-04-2014, 17:24   #102
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

No doubt they got that information from the Australians, who are now saying [they've changed their minds and] the pings are probably from the aircraft.

Still no mention of what else they might have been, or what else "pings" on that frequency.
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Old 31-05-2014, 04:47   #103
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

In consideration of the Rebel Heart rescue and all of the cost and emotional arguments people have expended there are a few points most people forget.

- The Maesrsk Alabama's Captain Richard Phillips was rescued off of Somalia and everyone cheered.

- the Mayaguez incident off of Cambodia in 1975.

- the American Iran hostage crisis in 1980 (a failed military operation).

All of these incidents were military operations costing millions and many lives. That's what I pay tax dollars for (not that I want to pay- I'm forced to pay...just like you).

A side note- it seems there's a relationship between boating disasters and the name of the boat.

For example;

- Titanic in Caldaen means "satanic"

- Rebel heart? Poor choice of a name implying rebellion. Seems to me that the ocean has a way of suppressing man's arrogance.

- Profligate? A boat now impounded in Mexico (BoatUS magazine latest issue)
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Old 31-05-2014, 07:23   #104
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

"- The Maesrsk Alabama's Captain Richard Phillips was rescued off of Somalia and everyone cheered."
That's got nothing to do with "vessel in distress" rescues at sea. The salient point there was that an American citizen was taken captive by pirates, and the "full force and power" of the US government is obligated to be used to rescue a citizen in that situation.
Coincidentally, the Jones Acts and the vessel documentation laws (in 10 USC as I recall) grant similar protection to US seamen and documented vessels. A vessel named "Alabama" just might be US flagged.

"- the Mayaguez incident off of Cambodia in 1975."
Again, nothing to do with SAR. To quote those Wiki folks: "The Mayaguez incident, which took place between the Khmer Rouge and the United States from May 12–15, 1975, was the last official battle of the Vietnam War."
An official battle of an illegal military action often mistaken for a war. Hmm. Do also bear in mind that like the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the USN, DoD, and other players told some whopping big lies about what happened in that corner of the world during those years. That's military politics, not SAR.
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Old 31-05-2014, 07:39   #105
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Re: Costs of Rescue...

[QUOTE=PDA1;1553491]In consideration of the Rebel Heart rescue and all of the cost and emotional arguments people have expended there are a few points most people forget.

- The Maesrsk Alabama's Captain Richard Phillips was rescued off of Somalia and everyone cheered.

- the Mayaguez incident off of Cambodia in 1975.

- the American Iran hostage crisis in 1980 (a failed military operation).

All of these incidents were military operations costing millions and many lives. That's what I pay tax dollars for (not that I want to pay- I'm forced to pay...just like you).
QUOTE]

Again, people don't seem to be able to get it through their heads that operations/exercises are going on constantly for the military. Millions are spent in the process and sometimes unfortunately lives are lost as well.

Here in the Hampton Roads area there are ships coming and going, all types of aircraft doing touch and goes etc, hovercraft going out and coming in, stealth seal boats also can be seen.

It never stops. So, to divert a ship or aircraft off the pattern so to speak I'm saying is pretty much already budgeted. They can do that are continue doing what "we" have them do which is to stay in a constant state of readiness.
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