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Old 08-04-2014, 11:54   #46
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Thanks for the chuckle. I wonder where you live. Because in the United States, the President's visit to Russia or Japan, and a deep sea rescue both cost real dollars.

We hire new marines, pilots, secret service, and coast guard employees every day. We buy new airplanes and helicopters all the time. We spend as much on our military as the next 13 countries combined.

I'm very proud to be an American. But I'm not pretending that all that stuff is free. In fact, I'm getting reminded again on April 15th.

I'm happy that the U.S. is capable of doing these rescues, and I'm happy that they do them. It's a worthy endeavor, but it's not a free endeavor. We do pay for it.
The other guys are just saying the money is already spent (budgeted) is all for the quarter. (or the fiscal year)

The F-18's, E-2's, and C-2's here will do endless touch and gos this month as they do every month, and it will cost tons of money but it's already in the budget for the month. That's all they are saying. It didn't cost you more because it was basically money already spent.

It's simply the way it's done in the military. All branches. You might work 20 hours this week, 80 next week, or have 4 days off due to inclement weather the cost will be the same and the flying will still get done, the fuel burned.

They/we here in the US are either doing it for real or training to do it for real. Cost is the same.
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:24   #47
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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I suggest you re-read my post before flaming me. If you had actually read my post, you wouldn't have written what you did. You'd see that I covered it, and you'd see that I didn't say what you implied that I said. I can't account for your inability to read or understand posts.

I didn't complain that we spent money -- I just pointed out that those who are saying that rescues don't cost anything are incorrect. I don't appreciate my words being twisted around.

If you want to disagree, read the post you're responding to first. If you want to attack me personally, please refer to the rules of the forum.
It wasn't a personal attack it was more of a ribbing. Let me give you some military insight on money and waste. Glass sighting prisms for tanks cost about $10k. I was in a warehous when one was dropped and damaged. Yup back in the box no big deal.. I shipped tanks from AZ to WY with all of the nessasary equipment trucks hummers command vehicles ect 90 rail cars worth for war game training. Yes anytime your national guard does training in another state all of the equipment goes with them. The biggest move I remember is 300 rail cars. How about $634,000,000 for a website how about your local website for state health care costing $11,000,000. The military runs rescue training all of the time. the ships and crew are on the water burning money where are they headed. Not to war so they are just headed in a different direction when it is a rescue..I just find it strange people only complain when it is an american being rescued. In my opinion thats the best money spent. Here is how military, police, fire department and governmemt budgets work..if you don't spend the budget the following year the budget is reduced. .

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Old 08-04-2014, 12:28   #48
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Re: Costs of rescue...

Life is full of risks and some might feel I take too many, so I won't speak to the family in a tough situation off Mexico.

I do believe if an incident can be traced to poor seamanship there should be a cost.[/QUOTE]

From the personal attacks on me it would seem proper seamanship is often confused with timidity.
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:40   #49
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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They didn't interupt a barbecue. They didnt drag Dad away from a tball game. The people that flew that mission were scheduled to work. Sometimes on the weekends they wax the floors, sometimes they get to save some lives. Which do you think they prefer?

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Reminds me of the courtroom speech Jack Nicholson gave in a few good men.

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Old 08-04-2014, 13:10   #50
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Reminds me of the courtroom speech Jack Nicholson gave in a few good men.

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That is still one of my favorite speeches. Unfortunately, most people who enjoy the freedoms have no idea what is required to secure them.
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Old 08-04-2014, 13:22   #51
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
The other guys are just saying the money is already spent (budgeted) is all for the quarter. (or the fiscal year)

The F-18's, E-2's, and C-2's here will do endless touch and gos this month as they do every month, and it will cost tons of money but it's already in the budget for the month. That's all they are saying. It didn't cost you more because it was basically money already spent.

It's simply the way it's done in the military. All branches. You might work 20 hours this week, 80 next week, or have 4 days off due to inclement weather the cost will be the same and the flying will still get done, the fuel burned.

They/we here in the US are either doing it for real or training to do it for real. Cost is the same.
There is some truth to that, and there is some falseness to that way of thinking. There is fixed cost, there is marginal cost, and there is opportunity cost. If the military is spending time on one mission, there is another mission it isn't performing.

There is a certain laziness of thought there, and it very quickly falls into the trap of saying, and I quote, "Whether they are doing a rescue, or sitting in the office Facebooking, or sleeping, they get paid the same." The implication there is that the military is sitting on their butts, waiting for something to do.

I know it wasn't meant that way, but I see it as disrespectful to the armed forces in general. The implication is that military is always just training, and not doing anything useful. Training is important. Not just any training, but the kind being developed by people who we're trusting to know what they're doing. I'm not all that familiar with the Navy, but I have to assume that someone, somewhere, is doing smart planning to keep the Navy in ship shape, in response to their mission. If you divert them to rescue someone, there is a cost to that mission. Worth it? Yes. Free? No. I don't think it should be taken for granted that they've nothing better to do than rescue leisure sailors. If you're swabbing the deck in the Pacific Fleet, navigating to different positions probably seems like such a waste. But somewhere, somebody else is making sure people are being trained in the right kind of maneuvers.

The proof of that is right here. They pulled off this rescue expertly. So some of that training they've done in the past prepared them for this. It's a great study of their capabilities, and they learn from it. It's another case study for the search and rescue personnel.

Can the U.S. afford to divert one Navy ship, a couple of planes, a couple of helicopters, four paramedics, and a few doctors to save one leisure sailor whose daughter is in trouble? Sure they can. Is it worth it? Sure it is. Is it free? No. Did people work extra hours, and did they take risks in doing this rescue that they otherwise would not have? You betcha. They live for this kind of stuff, but it's an extra effort on their part. Did they do this instead of something else they had planned to do? That's opportunity cost. Frankly, nobody here knows how many people were pulled off other assignments to help with this.

The military will assign costs to this operation. We can say "Oh, they were going to pay those personnel anyway -- they're on salaries!" Lots of places pay salaries. But if they perform a service, they assign costs to it and send you a bill. The military doesn't bill for their services, but they do track mission costs.

It comes down to how you measure it, and it's pretty clear that there are lots of ways to do that -- maybe none of them particularly accurate. The one way that I can't accept is "They were out there anyway, so it really didn't cost anything." I wholly disagree with that.
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Old 08-04-2014, 13:40   #52
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
The implication there is that the military is sitting on their butts, waiting for something to do.

I know it wasn't meant that way, but I see it as disrespectful to the armed forces in general.
Jeez, it's pretty obvious you haven't been on too many military bases. There is so much butt sitting in the military it's unF'ing believable to put it in military terms.

It's somewhat of a speciality for some in the military.

My experience is 6 years Marines and 34 years as a contractor. You should see a base on a Friday. There isn't a lot of butt sitting because everyone leaves early.
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Old 08-04-2014, 13:40   #53
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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It wasn't a personal attack it was more of a ribbing. Let me give you some military insight on money and waste. I just find it strange people only complain when it is an american being rescued. In my opinion thats the best money spent. Here is how military, police, fire department and governmemt budgets work..if you don't spend the budget the following year the budget is reduced. .

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I jumped on your post because I specifically said that rescue was a good use of resources. I didn't complain about the cost -- I was just saying that it's dumb to pretend there isn't a cost.

Trust me. I know enough about both the government budgeting process and waste to either put us all to sleep or make us all furious, but the government budgeting process isn't the topic of the thread. Rescue costs is the topic.
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Old 08-04-2014, 13:56   #54
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Jeez, it's pretty obvious you haven't been on too many military bases. There is so much butt sitting in the military it's unF'ing believable to put it in military terms.

It's somewhat of a speciality for some in the military.

My experience is 6 years Marines and 34 years as a contractor. You should see a base on a Friday. There isn't a lot of butt sitting because everyone leaves early.
Yup.

"Hurry up and wait." It wasn't in the Plan Of the Day, but it should have been.
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Old 08-04-2014, 14:27   #55
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Jeez, it's pretty obvious you haven't been on too many military bases. There is so much butt sitting in the military it's unF'ing believable to put it in military terms.

It's somewhat of a speciality for some in the military.

My experience is 6 years Marines and 34 years as a contractor. You should see a base on a Friday. There isn't a lot of butt sitting because everyone leaves early.
Actually, I've been on quite a few.

The military members you see leaving early on Friday may well have been at work before you hit the snooze button. But none of that has any relevance at all to the actual cost of a rescue mission.
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Old 08-04-2014, 15:04   #56
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Re: Costs of rescue...

Originally Posted by discourteously
Thanks for the chuckle. I wonder where you live. Because in the United States, the President's visit to Russia or Japan, and a deep sea rescue both cost real dollars.

We hire new marines, pilots, secret service, and coast guard employees every day. We buy new airplanes and helicopters all the time. We spend as much on our military as the next 13 countries combined.

I'm very proud to be an American. But I'm not pretending that all that stuff is free. In fact, I'm getting reminded again on April Th.

I'm happy that the U.S. is capable of doing these rescues, and I'm happy that they do them. It's a worthy endeavor, but it's not a free endeavor. We do pay for it.


actually it is free to the government, unless i don't have to give it to them, which i do to get to live here, to use as they see fit, Thru a budget we get no say in. So how they spend it matters little as long as they keep saving peoples lives with it one less training mission and one more real situation costs the same. The few friends i have in the coast guard said they learn 1000x more in real life situations than training. Go USA..
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Old 08-04-2014, 15:10   #57
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Re: American Express Not Taken Here!

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I like the ones that refuse to take cash, which is also a federal crime.
I thought the same for a long time, but turns out it isn't true.

Can Businesses Refuse to Accept Cash? :: Quick and Dirty Tips ™
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Old 08-04-2014, 15:20   #58
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Actually, I've been on quite a few.

The military members you see leaving early on Friday may well have been at work before you hit the snooze button. But none of that has any relevance at all to the actual cost of a rescue mission.
Which will be undertaken by the duty section, which has already been budgeted for and thus will cost nothing extra in actual dollars.

If what you said was true, Congress would have to meet and pass an appropriations bill every time someone made a distress call. There is no such thing as extra money in a gov't or military budget. It's either spend it or lose it.

Face it, the system is structured such that if someone calls for help, they can do it without worrying about money. If no one needs assistance, then they go out and train as if they're rescuing someone. Whether they're doing it as a training exercise or for real, nobody has to scratch out a check to make it happen. There is no added cost for a real rescue.

Just like my monthly internet bill. Whether I'm arguing with you for 48 hrs straight, or I'm sleeping, the bill is exactly the same.

LOL
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Old 08-04-2014, 16:15   #59
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Costs of Rescue...

Let's be grateful that, with the vast majority of developed nations, we are fortunate that we can risk our lives and the taxpayer will rescue us without fuss and from the public purse.

Long may it continue

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Old 08-04-2014, 16:22   #60
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Don't forget "they need the practice anyway" this is an often quipped bit when this topic comes up. It's really free anyway...

I reckon this logic would get you all sorts of deals, car mechanics, x ray techs, plumbers. All need practice. Why should they charge?
"They need the practice anyway" is not a joke. In fact, rescue services really do need a certain number of hours and a certain number of operations every month in order to stay in fully operational condition. In this, the rescue services are completely different from car mechanics and plumbers. So if there were no one to rescue, they would have to go out on excercises, which they often do, and burn the fuel anyway, and incur the wear and tear, etc. And real rescues are often more useful than exercises.

So in every budget of every rescue service in the developed world there is a certain amount for fuel and other expenses of going out on missions. So long as there are not so many rescues that the normal budget is exceeded, there really is no incremental cost, and the rescue services are glad to have a real boat with real people to practice on. It really is like that -- no joke!


In the UK, the RNLI Lifeboats don't even get government funding at all! They are a private charity that sailors contribute to; staffed mostly by unpaid volunteers. It is a terrific system which we should emulate! So you contribute every year whatever you feel like you can afford, and if you do need to be rescued, you know you haven't created any burden to anyone even indirectly. It's a great system!

http://rnli.org/aboutus/aboutthernli...-the-rnli.aspx


Note that they spend about 140 million pounds (about $230 million) a year and rescue about 22 people a day or about 8000 people a year. That's nearly $30,000 per person rescued, and they are not paying salaries to most of their staff, and they don't run helicopters.

But they will be spending the 140 million pounds in any case, so they don't consider that it costs $30,000 for every rescued person. That is because it doesn't cost an additional $30,000 every time they go out. Are people on here familiar with the concept of fixed versus variable costs? The 140 million pounds is simply what it takes to maintain this service, whether anyone is rescued or not.

By the way, the RNLI will also in many cases tow your boat back (the UK Coast Guard will also often do this), so besides all the lives saved, there is a great deal of property saved -- probably considerably offsetting the 140 million in costs.

My hat's off to them -- a great service the rest of the world could profitably emulate.
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