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Old 06-04-2014, 22:24   #16
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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I understand what you are saying but I don't have a problem accounting for 15 cents out of every $100 I spend. I rarely use cash so it all on my AMEX statement.

Next time we invade Iraq we should give out AMEX gift cards to the warlords.
Interesting idea. Mebbe put GPS locator chips in the AMEX cards too, just to keep 'em honest... (SPOT me, drone)
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Old 06-04-2014, 23:04   #17
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Re: Costs of rescue...

There have been many rescues off the Wa Or coast that were unnecessary due to inexperienced sailors.
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Old 06-04-2014, 23:29   #18
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Let's pick up that discussion here, where it is appropriate.

All of the military personnel in that air wing are paid a monthly salary. Whether they are doing a rescue, or sitting in the office Facebooking, or sleeping, they get paid the same. If they are out doing a rescue, there is not one penny of additional labor cost involved for the month. It's just one more thing they did that month that they didn't get paid extra for.

Every quarter the squadron (and every military unit) is issued a budget called an OPTAR (last I knew) which they have to expend by the end of the quarter. If they blow it all the first month, they don't get to buy parts or supplies for the next 2 months. If they end up with a surplus at the end, they buy office supplies or desks, or whatever to burn it up, or it gets taken away and a smaller budget is allotted next quarter.

Every month they have training requirements, maintenance to do, and regular operations like this rescue. It's already in the budget, it's not an added expense. Even if they had already done more than the normal number of rescues for the quarter, they can easily just write this up as a training exercise and cover the fuel expended, which is the only variable expense involved. They have to do so many hours of flight time anyways, this just happens to be a very worthy exercise.


There is no comparison in the civilian world. Car mechanics, doctors, plumbers, etc all get plenty of practice ripping off their customers on a daily basis. No need to set aside a training budget or exercises for it.

A little bit of knowledge about budgeting can lead to some seriously wrong conclusions. While rescue missions are worthwhile, they're not free. Specific rescues aren't budgeted for in advance by all those units who help out.

Those four paramedics who spent the weekend on Rebel Heart had other things they could have been doing. Like staying at home with THEIR kids. Like saving other people's lives. Those pilots had other things they could have been doing, and it wasn't necessarily video games or training. That Navy ship also had other plans before being diverted. To assume otherwise is what people who don't get the big picture might assume, but it doesn't make it so.

Don't get me wrong, their sense of duty is far greater than most occupations, and they love doing their jobs, particularly when a little girl's life is at stake. But the assumption that they had nothing else to do just isn't right.

I applaud that they did it. I have no problem whatsoever with their use of resources for what I see as a critical service for a fellow cruiser. They went were they were needed, and they did some good. They don't have a problem doing it, either. Thank God they were there. But when people say they have nothing else to do other than useless training missions, "sitting in their office facebooking", or to save up for paper clips, it makes me sort of angry. Every hour spent on one task is an hour not spent on something else, and these people have real jobs to do.

We are at war, whether people realize it or agree with it or not. Our military resources are stretched thin compared to the relative job they are expected to do. Their budgets are getting cut. They use civilians for lots of jobs, and their budgets got cut, too. They're doing more with less. When they do more with less they sometimes make mistakes and people die.

World policemen? Sadly, someone has to do it. Frankly, what they do, and how they use their resources, makes the world safer than ever for cruisers. I'd say this weekend was proof of that.

Does the government waste money? Oh yeah. If anyone knows how to fix that, I'd love to hear about it. At the same time, it doesn't mean that military missions are free.
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Old 07-04-2014, 01:44   #19
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Re: Costs of rescue...

The cost is ZERO they are burning fuel and run training for war, rescues and other things. .it sffects noting as far as cost wow we can do fake rescues where we know the outcome or real missions. Even if the cost eas 100 million I could care less. It eas spent on an american. . We throw billions at other countries helping them and rescuing them. Why is it only a big desl when it is an american. .how much was the the cost if the redcue for the north korean communists ship.. all of this has already been paid for through tax dollars. Where is the billion of dollars america spent getting Kuwait back..I don't even recall a public thank you from them.

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Old 07-04-2014, 01:53   #20
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Don't forget "they need the practice anyway" this is an often quipped bit when this topic comes up. It's really free anyway...

I reckon this logic would get you all sorts of deals, car mechanics, x ray techs, plumbers. All need practice. Why should they charge?

I also agree the airliner search has nothing do with the selective picking up of a few wayward yachties. What the airline industry worth world wide, billions annually?
Yes because the goods and services are not paid for at your mechanic. Fire departments shouldn't charge because it is paid for by tax dollars.

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Old 07-04-2014, 02:25   #21
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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I would say they are not really searching for dead people in the Indian Ocean. They are searching for an explanation as to how that tragedy could happen, and some closure for the families.
Yes, that plus why it happened. The why also has a lot to do with who pays the insurance pay outs
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Old 07-04-2014, 02:28   #22
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Re: Costs of rescue...

According to some on the board. .do not go further than you can afford or further than the maximum amount of your policy

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Old 07-04-2014, 07:34   #23
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
A little bit of knowledge about budgeting can lead to some seriously wrong conclusions. While rescue missions are worthwhile, they're not free. Specific rescues aren't budgeted for in advance by all those units who help out.

Those four paramedics who spent the weekend on Rebel Heart had other things they could have been doing. Like staying at home with THEIR kids. Like saving other people's lives. Those pilots had other things they could have been doing, and it wasn't necessarily video games or training. That Navy ship also had other plans before being diverted. To assume otherwise is what people who don't get the big picture might assume, but it doesn't make it so.

Don't get me wrong, their sense of duty is far greater than most occupations, and they love doing their jobs, particularly when a little girl's life is at stake. But the assumption that they had nothing else to do just isn't right.
It is not a sense of duty, it is an actual duty. Never, I repeat, Never do any of these squadrons lock the doors and send everyone home for the weekend, or even a night. They have a duty schedule, gernerally once a month each soldier works a weekend. They all have night shifts and brutally long, rotating watch schedules. Every person that was needed to fly that mission was most likely at the airfield that day, on duty.

They didn't interupt a barbecue. They didnt drag Dad away from a tball game. The people that flew that mission were scheduled to work. Sometimes on the weekends they wax the floors, sometimes they get to save some lives. Which do you think they prefer?

Now that they have everyone safe, the skipper or captain of their squadron will give them a day or two off to rest and make up for the weekend.

As for saving other peoples lives... the squadron next door had soldiers ready to do that.

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Old 07-04-2014, 08:13   #24
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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It is not a sense of duty, it is an actual duty. Never, I repeat, Never do any of these squadrons lock the doors and send everyone home for the weekend, or even a night. They have a duty schedule, gernerally once a month each soldier works a weekend. They all have night shifts and brutally long, rotating watch schedules. Every person that was needed to fly that mission was most likely at the airfield that day, on duty.

They didn't interupt a barbecue. They didnt drag Dad away from a tball game. The people that flew that mission were scheduled to work. Sometimes on the weekends they wax the floors, sometimes they get to save some lives. Which do you think they prefer?

Now that they have everyone safe, the skipper or captain of their squadron will give them a day or two off to rest and make up for the weekend.

As for saving other peoples lives... the squadron next door had soldiers ready to do that.

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It's not that they "intererrupted a barbeque", thought I'm certain they did.

It's also absolutely not the case that the people working it were sitting around waiting to get sent 900 miles off the coast of Mexico.

Yea, those people, even the ones "on call" don't work at some station 24 hours a day, even if they're on a salary. They don't close their doors on the weekends, but they had more people working this weekend in order to pull this off. Maybe you're thinking of the people on the Navy boat. They certainly weren't going home.

People work longer hours when they're on a rescue mission. People were pulled from other things. Fuel was expended. Boats were tracked. They sent boats and helicopters to the location. They made reports all over creation. And they got the job done. That work will continue this week, even after the rescue is complete. Yes, some will get a day off this week to make up for it. Even that is a cost.

There IS a budget for rescues, but that budget was used for THIS, instead of some other rescue. If they need more money for rescues, they don't stop doing them, they just ask for more funds. You can budget for a boat repair. Does that make the boat repair free? No, it just means you have it covered when it happens.

No, those pilots and paramedics weren't going to be spending the weekend waxing floors if they weren't on this mission. In all likelihood, they were going to be home. Yes, military members are on call 100% of the time. They DO live for this kind of stuff -- it's what they train for. But that doesn't make it "free".

I want to be perfectly clear, I don't have ANY problem that they did this. I do, however, have a problem with anyone who says that this kind of mission doesn't cost anything. It's just way too flippant to say that, without it being at all true. Rescue missions do have a cost.

You can argue that it's a better use of our resources than a lot of things I see our government do, and I'll be inclined to agree.
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Old 07-04-2014, 08:36   #25
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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AMVER coordinates rescues. I developed a presentation after our rescue.

Rescue me

Not to nitpick that slide set but...


AMVER does not co-ordinate rescues, AMVER is a voluntary programme, run by the USCG, that participating vessels, provide their route and position information to allow rescue agencies and MRCCs, determine what ship assets are available. The rescue is co-ordinated by the usual MRCC.

In thats respects your slide deck has that correct

( in your slide deck) I would point out that an EPIRB does not transmit GPS, a GPIRB does, but only an EPIRB is GMDSS mandatory at this point.

Equally PAN PAN MEDICAL & PAN PAN MEDICO is a depreciated pro-word and its use is not now recommend.

I would fundamentally agree that sat-comms is the best system for SAR use, with only VHF for in close work being useful. HF is a poor substitute.

It should be pointed out , and this is something many leisure sailors don't understand. GMDSS requires you to contact the shore for rescue alerts , not other ships. This is because the co-ordinating body is the MRCC not the nearest ships.

Hence sailors should always carry at least one device that can reach the shore , irrespective of where they are. GMDSS compliant vessels, require two independent means of reaching the shore.

dave
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Old 07-04-2014, 08:43   #26
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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There have been many rescues off the Wa Or coast that were unnecessary due to inexperienced sailors.
The experienced sailors got that way by going out sailing.

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Old 07-04-2014, 09:06   #27
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
It's not that they "intererrupted a barbeque", thought I'm certain they did.

It's also absolutely not the case that the people working it were sitting around waiting to get sent 900 miles off the coast of Mexico.

Yea, those people, even the ones "on call" don't work at some station 24 hours a day, even if they're on a salary. They don't close their doors on the weekends, but they had more people working this weekend in order to pull this off. Maybe you're thinking of the people on the Navy boat. They certainly weren't going home.

People work longer hours when they're on a rescue mission. People were pulled from other things. Fuel was expended. Boats were tracked. They sent boats and helicopters to the location. They made reports all over creation. And they got the job done. That work will continue this week, even after the rescue is complete. Yes, some will get a day off this week to make up for it. Even that is a cost.

There IS a budget for rescues, but that budget was used for THIS, instead of some other rescue. If they need more money for rescues, they don't stop doing them, they just ask for more funds. You can budget for a boat repair. Does that make the boat repair free? No, it just means you have it covered when it happens.

No, those pilots and paramedics weren't going to be spending the weekend waxing floors if they weren't on this mission. In all likelihood, they were going to be home. Yes, military members are on call 100% of the time. They DO live for this kind of stuff -- it's what they train for. But that doesn't make it "free".

I want to be perfectly clear, I don't have ANY problem that they did this. I do, however, have a problem with anyone who says that this kind of mission doesn't cost anything. It's just way too flippant to say that, without it being at all true. Rescue missions do have a cost.

You can argue that it's a better use of our resources than a lot of things I see our government do, and I'll be inclined to agree.
I still think you're under estimating the level of readiness that these SAR squadrons must remain at. The amount of people it took to pull off this mission was likely very close to the amount that was on station, ready to fly. Lengthy, life-threatening delays would be the norm if they were just on call.

You're quite right about the pilots and paramedics and the other officers belonging to that squadron, they were not waxing floors. But every enlisted member has waxed a floor or painted a wall or something on the weekend.

Where are the non-fixed, unbudgeted costs per rescue? I'm not saying there aren't any. However, I don't think they are anywhere near some figures that get thrown around in the media. The fuel expended will be expended no matter what. The salaries, fixed cost. The aircraft, fixed cost. The maintenance on that aircraft, while not a fixed cost it would occur anyway after they fly in circles around the airfield.

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Old 07-04-2014, 09:22   #28
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Re: Costs of rescue...

back in the old days when i had a good body and in good shape i belonged to first idaho mountain search and rescue and then appalachian search and rescue -- all volunteer -- spent a lot of dollars and time on equipment and training -- did fund raising to afford the trucks, radios, gasoline, litters ect

went on a number of searches for missing people - mostly dumb stuff but not all -- spent a lot of time away from family on training and for searches is was worse - as we spent a few days in the field and came back totally exhausted and had to go to work that day or the next

at one time there was some thought by authorities that they would start charging and share the money with the units to cover expenses -- we all fought against it as folks would be hesitant to call in and the later it was called in the harder the search and less likely the outcome would be favorable

i think if they started charging there would be less calls until it is to late -- most have seen the tv show deadliest catch -- could you imagine those guys call the coast guard when morning comes and they are surrounded by an ice field and no idea how to get out of it -- they might just try it themselves until they really get trapped and then real problems --
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Old 07-04-2014, 09:55   #29
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Re: Costs of rescue...

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Not to nitpick that slide set but...


AMVER does not co-ordinate rescues, AMVER is a voluntary programme, run by the USCG, that participating vessels, provide their route and position information to allow rescue agencies and MRCCs, determine what ship assets are available. The rescue is co-ordinated by the usual MRCC.

In thats respects your slide deck has that correct

( in your slide deck) I would point out that an EPIRB does not transmit GPS, a GPIRB does, but only an EPIRB is GMDSS mandatory at this point.

Equally PAN PAN MEDICAL & PAN PAN MEDICO is a depreciated pro-word and its use is not now recommend.

I would fundamentally agree that sat-comms is the best system for SAR use, with only VHF for in close work being useful. HF is a poor substitute.

It should be pointed out , and this is something many leisure sailors don't understand. GMDSS requires you to contact the shore for rescue alerts , not other ships. This is because the co-ordinating body is the MRCC not the nearest ships.

Hence sailors should always carry at least one device that can reach the shore , irrespective of where they are. GMDSS compliant vessels, require two independent means of reaching the shore.

dave
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Thanks

I misspoke about the coordination. AMVER takes an active role in helping determine which ship is best to effect a rescue. All communication is through the RCC. The only time we spoke with the Navarino was on the VHF. My only conversations with AMVER were after the fact when I had Ben Strong vet the presentation.


I will amend the slides as suggested.
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Old 07-04-2014, 10:36   #30
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Re: Costs of rescue...

It's not just the cost it's the perceived reason for the rescue.

IMHO anyone with a infant or toddler shouldn't be taking them far from pediatric care. Medical problems for these guys can spiral out of control to quickly.

I'm sure children don't get a vote for going on extended ocean voyages. That being said who would decide which rescues should be billed some nominal amount and which shouldn't? What bureaucrat would you trust to make the determination?
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