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Old 15-12-2014, 20:21   #121
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Re: Cost of Cruising

Actually the 3% to 5% annual maintenance is right in line with the Roses purchase cost. It was a cheap/ destressed boat to buy. There is a lot that you can't really skimp on, Standing rigging, running rigging, blocks, its got to be able to carry the loads safely, for the boats size. Agree that batteries and breakers have to be replaced too. Safety of the people and boat is paramont. No question there.

On engine parts/ replacement. I rebuilt my water pump">raw water pump, Bearings and seals and new shaft for $220 ish, rather then fork out $450 for a new raw water pump. I clean out the discharge elbow and inspect it about once year. It's 20 years old, but only 1400 hours on it, 1000 hours of which was in the last 7 years. The manual says replace every 500 hours, I think, but it's been a while since I looked it up. In any case that seems a bit overkill.. 1500-2000 hours is probably a better number, least wise with what I see in the interior passages.

When I do replace it, I'll either make one up from sch. 80 cast iron or have a local welder fabricate one. Either way I'll save a few hundred on the $500 part Yanmar's so proud of.. Coolant hoses, I took the three fresh water hoses from my 3gm30f to the auto parts store and the guy behind the counter, found me one hose to cut all three from. Again, savings from Yanmars cost.

Mainsail, I would love a new mainsail. My budget only supported a used one. While a new one would have been about $2000 or higher, for a basic cruising sail, I did not have $2000. I found a lightly used sail for $300, a bargain. My backup autohelm 3000 autopilot, I repaired for $10 in darlington transistors. Mind you they are pretty simply, unlike the newer autopilots.

My anchor light is a $18 led blub mounted in an old miss's dash season jar ($20 total including zip ties and, cough, speaker wire), zip tied to the aft stay above the boom. It's very bright and as a bonus lights up the cockpit and a goodly part of the deck at night. Been working about 2 years now.

No question sailing the inland waterways of the SF bay are less wearing then a long ocean passage. My average mileage is only about 1000 miles a year, so not that much. But I happily putz around, anchoring hither and yond and being one of those low life live aboard folk on a rather low budget that some folks get annoyed with.

Maintenance costs is partly a function of boat size and type, A power boat or cat will have much higher engine costs then a single engine sailboat of the same size. But some savings is possible if one has to do it as cheaply as possible. A 40 foot sailboat rigging and sails will cost 2-3 times that or more then a 30 foot boat. engine cost, probably only 20% more, unless its a turbo.

I suppose if I had the money I would spend it on better bits and pieces, rather then making do, or doing it myself. Luckily, I'm not been blessed with an over abundance of funds, and have had to get innovative with my pinched pennies.

But due to my monetarily challenged lifestyle, I now know how to rebuild yanmars and have the "Bubba" socket to pull the crank nut off, without which you can't machine the block. When I checked with a local Yanmar mechanic, trying to find someone with the special socket to break the nut loose, he said in 20 years he never pulled the crank on a yanmar. Seems most folks just buy a new engine.

I guess maintenance like everything else boat related, it takes what you gots.
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Old 16-12-2014, 08:20   #122
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Re: Cost of Cruising

Something to think about,
We've found the longer we live on the boat and travel, we're doing it cheeper and cheeper as we go. And its not a money thing as we have plenty to do what we wish, (within limmits) but some things are just not that important anymore or we're finding new things to take the place.
Eating out was a big issue with us, but I think it was moving withing the close quarters of the boat and cabin fever and then Ramona was shoved into a small gally where she once had a large kitchen.. But time has changed and we find the food we purchase at resturants just dosent meet up to what we can make at home, and as for being on the boat, we've become very comfortable within the walls of the craft.
We've also found the little gagets at boat show and the local marine stores are not purchased anymore.
Could be we're getting older, maybe a little wiser, but outside expence seams to be a trip to Baskin Robbins every month or so.. other than that, we're pretty basic.
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Old 16-12-2014, 09:12   #123
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Re: Cost of Cruising

I do not think maintenance can reasonably be a percentage of purchase cost.

If that were true, then an older more worn boat would cost less to maintain than a new boat, and that is just not logical.

As far as determining size and equipment to determine cost, I assume the common cruising boat is.
1. 40 ft + or -
2. autopilot and or windvane
3. full radios, vhf, SSB, pactor modem, Sat phone, EPIRB. Liferaft, AIS, Radar, Plotter
4. generator and or Solar, watermaker, large wet cell battery bank, pressure water and water heater
5. Dinghy and outboard

Assume everything is mid life so should be to a point to where your maintaining sea worthiness, not refitting.

Meant to be as much as possible the cost of maintaining the most common cruising boat, throw in amount sailed to be 2 or 3 thousand miles a yr., not upper latitude sailing, trade wind type of sailing as I assume that is where most are.
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Old 16-12-2014, 09:17   #124
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Re: Cost of Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Something to think about,
We've found the longer we live on the boat and travel, we're doing it cheeper and cheeper as we go. And its not a money thing as we have plenty to do what we wish, (within limmits) but some things are just not that important anymore or we're finding new things to take the place.
Eating out was a big issue with us, but I think it was moving withing the close quarters of the boat and cabin fever and then Ramona was shoved into a small gally where she once had a large kitchen.. But time has changed and we find the food we purchase at resturants just dosent meet up to what we can make at home, and as for being on the boat, we've become very comfortable within the walls of the craft.
We've also found the little gagets at boat show and the local marine stores are not purchased anymore.
Could be we're getting older, maybe a little wiser, but outside expence seams to be a trip to Baskin Robbins every month or so.. other than that, we're pretty basic.

I think we will fit this pattern as well, right now it's all new to me and I lust after the shiny bits, but eventually the excitement will begin to fade, it will become not so new and just what life is, then we will be in a normalcy, sustainment phase, I expect that will take a yr or so?
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Old 17-12-2014, 02:31   #125
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I do not think maintenance can reasonably be a percentage of purchase cost.

If that were true, then an older more worn boat would cost less to maintain than a new boat, and that is just not logical.

As far as determining size and equipment to determine cost, I assume the common cruising boat is.
1. 40 ft + or -
2. autopilot and or windvane
3. full radios, vhf, SSB, pactor modem, Sat phone, EPIRB. Liferaft, AIS, Radar, Plotter
4. generator and or Solar, watermaker, large wet cell battery bank, pressure water and water heater
5. Dinghy and outboard

Assume everything is mid life so should be to a point to where your maintaining sea worthiness, not refitting.

Meant to be as much as possible the cost of maintaining the most common cruising boat, throw in amount sailed to be 2 or 3 thousand miles a yr., not upper latitude sailing, trade wind type of sailing as I assume that is where most are.
This description fits us to a "T" , but I think you'll end up with lots of discussion regarding the need/desirability of many of the "gadgets" pressure water, radar, AIS etc.
A number of members here have an aversion to these "toys" feeling that simplicity is best.

As we will be sailing trade winds RTW, I'm not terrribly worried about everything breaking down. I'll carry spares for those things that are not easily repaired and either do the rest myself or else live without for part of the trip (example is havinga foot pump in the ktichen to make do if the pressure water goes completely down).


So what will all that cost? Assume a 10 year lifespan for all of it and use a straight line depreication techniques. You'lll need to lay aside 10% of the total per year.

The sum total of what you have listed is something around $125 grand (guessitmate prices for new, all rounded off). So you'll need to lay aside about $1 per month so you can replace it with new when necessary.

Some of it (windvane, dinghy motor, SSB watermaker) will probably last more than 10 years, but will need repair along the way.

I'm sure a number of folks on this board will disagree with my quick and dirty budgetting, but that's how I'm figuring it, and I'm pretty sure that by the time 10 years is up, we'll be close to that.

I think you forgot to include something for rigging and sails.
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Old 17-12-2014, 03:47   #126
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Re: Cost of Cruising

I have had this boat almost 5 and a half years. I do move around, usually a new place every week or two and have covered ~ 16,000 miles so far in this time. I don't really know where the money goes but I can say for sure a lot of it is buying food.

I have spent about $20,000 because that's what I had and it's nearly gone. Before I had nothing but a bicycle, so it includes the cost of the boat, monitor wind vane, sails, new standing rigging, tools, kayaks, paint etc... but in the last year only $1000 because already had the boat and all the stuff so I'm just buying food and occasional tools. Other than that I spent a few hundred dollars on computers and other electronics, but a lot of my computers were donated.

As for annual boat cost, it essentially comes out to zero, because I am not spending any money on the boat, only using what I have to fix things that break. I do intend to paint the bottom soon (once every 2-3 years) which costs about $150 for the paint.
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Old 17-12-2014, 04:14   #127
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Re: Cost of Cruising

In my experience of trade wind sailing ( limited I admit ) the wear and tear on your rig is a lot harder than in higher latitudes.. the trades are crap... the higher latitudes are honest and decent ( hard but decent) ... for some views on what happens in the trades lookee here .. a sister ship of mine... Technical | Camomile you may have to drill into that a bit
Moving right along...
Cost as a percentage of purchase price ? try inversely proportional to the square of whatever plus 10%

Re the water system... mine combines a foot pump together with pressure pump... when the copper liner of the calorifier went terminal the whole system was stuffed... any attempt to pump with anything put FW straight into the bilge.. ditto the foot pump... when the diaphragm failed any attempt to pump water saw FW going to bilge....

At the end of the day you have a choice... breakdown maintenance or programmed maintenance.

Breakdown maintenance is fine for pumps and stuff you can carry spares for...

Programmed maintenance for the rig, sails, stern tube seals, sea cocks,... and any other stuff that can really lead to tears when you are out in the bush.

This was in Papeete 4 or so months ago... owner said it just needed a bit of stitching... nope..its rooted.... see programmed maintenance above.... ( must admit... had something not disimilar happen once with an 11 yo mainsail .... if leaving on a circumnav.. leave with new sails...)
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Old 17-12-2014, 04:17   #128
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Re: Cost of Cruising

Oh... and new rigging...
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Old 17-12-2014, 05:37   #129
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Re: Cost of Cruising

I intend to leave with new sails and standing rigging. I hope to get 7 to 10 yrs out of them at which time I'll probably be evaluating whether we are in a condition to stay on the boat or maybe a trawler, or maybe become Earth Pigs again.
Seems running rigging is just not that hard to replace and seems it wears at different rates as well, unless I'm doing something wrong anyway. So plan there is replace as necessary.
I'm thinking $1,000 to $1,500 a month for the boat is a realistic number, variance is where you are and how much are you willing to do and are capable of yourself. This is based on keeping the boat in a high state of seaworthiness and not allowing it to degrade. ( I hope)
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Old 17-12-2014, 06:35   #130
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
......
The sum total of what you have listed is something around $125 grand (guessitmate prices for new, all rounded off). So you'll need to lay aside about $1 per month so you can replace it with new when necessary.
.....
I like the math. If I had control of things, I would make math work this way
I think you meant closer to $1 grand a month, not $1. The approach is probably pretty reasonable, with the exception that you are implying that at the end of the item's 10 year life they will be replaced, as the money for them when you leave has already been sunk. I would guess that many would sell the boat before the 10 year mark and have only replaced a small amount of the total. Leaving the boat not as well equipped as when they left. The next buyer will start the process over again.
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Old 17-12-2014, 06:47   #131
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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I like the math. If I had control of things, I would make math work this way
I think you meant closer to $1 grand a month, not $1. The approach is probably pretty reasonable, with the exception that you are implying that at the end of the item's 10 year life they will be replaced, as the money for them when you leave has already been sunk. I would guess that many would sell the boat before the 10 year mark and have only replaced a small amount of the total. Leaving the boat not as well equipped as when they left. The next buyer will start the process over again.
Yep, some will sell the boat after 4-5 years. Most items on that list will need to be replaced after 10 years of heavy cruising. Windvanes are pretty indestrucible so that can be kept. All electronics will have been changed out before the 10 year mark. Maybe the SSB , liferaft, dinghy (assuming Hypalon) and motor are still around

yes I did mean $1 grand, not $1.

Someone wonce told me that an atlantic crossing puts as much wear and tear on a boat as most coastal cruisers do in 2-3 years. That gives a pretty reasonable idea of what to expect. Of course if you cross the atlantic an then spend the next 5 years coastaling inthe Med - well the maintenance will be less than someone who is RTWing
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Old 17-12-2014, 07:02   #132
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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....
Someone wonce told me that an atlantic crossing puts as much wear and tear on a boat as most coastal cruisers do in 2-3 years. That gives a pretty reasonable idea of what to expect. Of course if you cross the atlantic an then spend the next 5 years coastaling inthe Med - well the maintenance will be less than someone who is RTWing
I think the big jump in wear and tear is going from a boat that is used seasonally and part time, to one where you cruise while living aboard full time.
You can add to your long-term equipment list items like a re-varnish of the interior, a stove replacement, maybe a tank or two replacement, a new head,......
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Old 17-12-2014, 07:06   #133
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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I think the big jump in wear and tear is going from a boat that is used seasonally and part time, to one where you cruise while living aboard full time.
You can add to your long-term equipment list items like a re-varnish of the interior, a stove replacement, maybe a tank or two replacement, a new head,......
No doubt all those things and more (we haven't begun to discuss new halyards and sheets). Still a grand per month probably will get you there. If you plan on selling the boat within 5 years, cut it in half and say $500 per month.

Of course all these discussions assume the boat is in excellent shape and so is everything on it.
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Old 17-12-2014, 07:19   #134
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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Originally Posted by Randyonr3 View Post
Something to think about,
We've found the longer we live on the boat and travel, we're doing it cheeper and cheeper as we go. And its not a money thing as we have plenty to do what we wish, (within limmits) but some things are just not that important anymore or we're finding new things to take the place.
Eating out was a big issue with us, but I think it was moving withing the close quarters of the boat and cabin fever and then Ramona was shoved into a small gally where she once had a large kitchen.. But time has changed and we find the food we purchase at resturants just dosent meet up to what we can make at home, and as for being on the boat, we've become very comfortable within the walls of the craft.
We've also found the little gagets at boat show and the loccal marine stores are not purchased anymore.
Could be we're getting older, maybe a little wiser, but outside expence seams to be a trip to Baskin Robbins every month or so.. other than that, we're pretty basic.
The cooking and eating out has been an especially big change for me and mine. In earlier years, I spent and embarrassing amount of money on eating out (and did so on the last cruise). I remember being embarrassed when taking a friend who had flown in to sail with us, to a local restaurant and getting a $120 bill for a very meager meal and him asking, 'How often do eat like this' and realizing that the answer was, "Way too often".

Since returning three years ago, we have discovered the joys of cooking and we are quite impressed with ourselves. Now, when we go out to eat (less and less often), we realize that we rarely get a meal as tasty and as good as we cook for ourselves, and at a fraction of the price).

Over and over again, as we prepare to go again and are working out our cruising budget, which I don't share here because I really don't think it applies with any validity to anyone but us (and which I already know would be decried by half as excessive, and the other half as deficient ) we are reminded that it's skill in income management, rather than skill in income production, that rules the financial day in the end.

We're lucky in that we both made plans early on for a retirement income that would be available in our fifties. But, the operative word here is "plan". We set up a plan for an income stream a long time ago. We have friends, who drive brand new cars, who don't see the correlation between us being retired and about to leave on a second cruise, and driving eight year old used cars. It's amazing how many of them are oh so sure we have inherited money and are hiding that fact. (In fact, yesterday, one of the people that I work with, now, and that I am leaving, and who drives a brand new Mercedes, says he wished he and his wife could do the same thing. I didn't feel like pointing out to him that they could, except for the fact that they had organized their priorities differently.)

We are friends with two other couples, who work their asses off all year to go spend two weeks in the Abacos every year. Both couples constantly say they wish theycould work less and spend more time there. Why cant' they? Because, it's not a priority, no matter what they say. They both spend money like drunken sailors.

And, even if we hadn't planned, I would rather eat beans and rice (and, it's amazing what you can with do those when you learn how), on our boat, anchored off some tropical island, than be eating steak, and working until I die. Cruising has been my dream since I was a teenager. You don't get a do over in life. Barring reincarnation being real, this is the only life you get. Why so many people waste it, is something I will never understand.

Anyway, that's my long rant. In the end, the people who say something can't be done, aren't the people you want to be advising you on how to do that something. It is really is all about priorities. Wasting real dollars is sad. Wasting life dollars is tragic.
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Old 17-12-2014, 08:05   #135
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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I do not think maintenance can reasonably be a percentage of purchase cost.
When I have seen it expressed as a percentage of the purchase cost is has been for maintenance and upgrades to maintain the boat near the purchase price. This I think makes sense because higher cost boats will typically have more systems and electronics that will require upgrades. Essentially if you don't spend close to 5% of the value annually on the maintenance and upgrades you can expect a much larger hit on resale price.

Quote:
If that were true, then an older more worn boat would cost less to maintain than a new boat, and that is just not logical.
I know I said this recently on one of these threads but I don't get the concept that boat age has anything to do with maintenance costs.

I have a 2001 boat, it costs me the same to change the oil, the impeller, the transmission fluid, etc. on my boat is it would on a boat built in 2015 or a boat built in 1980. I need to sand the bottom and apply new paint every couple of years regardless of the age of the boat.

The only thing that happens when people say that new boats cost less to maintain is that they are deferring the maintenance to the future and possible to the next owner. And this is usually reflected in sale price of the boat so they are typically only hurting themselves in the long run.

And when people talk about it cost them more to maintain their old boat its because they are now picking up the slack for deferred maintenance. But again, if they did their homework properly they purchased the boat at a discount so it was reflected in the cost of the boat.

Sorry for the rant.
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