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Old 13-12-2014, 11:38   #76
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Old 13-12-2014, 11:51   #77
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Also, people keep bring up financial resources, etc. Talking about so and so has planned for years and gotten his boat to this point etc.

Where is it written that you don't have the resources if you sail an old boat?

Ever see the gelcoat on a new boat? It will damn near give you a heart attack when you scratch it. I had two new catamarans over the years.

I hit a piling with the bow sprit on my Old Bristol the first year I had it still learning this motoring business. The old bow sprit tore off a good inch of that piling! I kicked off the remaining chunks of wood a couple days later that were still on the boat.
I don't see that anyone has made that inference at all. Many of us, me and my husband included, fix up and sail old boats for a variety of reasons, but our income would easily allow us to own a much larger, newer boat if that was what we wanted to do. It's not.

I know lots and lots and LOTS of people who fall into this camp. They'd rather put their money into their homes, their kids, their investment accounts, whatever. Maybe the cruise on the old boat is done with great peace of mind because of the resources they have tucked away for a rainy day.

A lot of people just prefer the older designs, the build quality, the way they sail, the romanticism of saving a piece of bygone days, or a loyalty to a builder or designer that has long since closed up shop. Others actually enjoy working on boats, building and fixing things, and creating something that is uniquely theirs out of something that was destined for the scrap heap and find satisfaction in knowing that they saved themselves some money in doing so. (Okay...I'm describing us here....I admit it.)

Some people don't mind going on a wing and a prayer and a "we'll figure it out when we get there.." Or they do it because they have to. I admire those people in a way. They are the proverbial free spirits and there's a lot to recommend it. They have the adventures when the more conservative among us are still hanging back hedging our bets. But many others, us included, like a little more of a fall back plan and have made commitments in other areas of our lives that dictate that the boat can't be our everything. I don't think that anyone is suggesting or assuming that just because someone sails an older boat or restricts their cruising budget that they are necessarily without resources. Some of the richest people I know live like they don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. That's how they got rich in the first place.
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Old 13-12-2014, 12:03   #78
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Re: Cost of Cruising

I'm not trying to brag here so please don't take it that way. I started out thinking we would want a new or nearly so, bigger Cat to go cruising on, current boat was meant to be a learner boat that we would sell in a couple of years after learning how to live and sail.
Well, what we have learned so far is that we both like this old boat, and we both like the heavy furnishings and the large amount of teak inside that you just don't find on newer Cats anyway and it seems to fit our needs, so I'm now spending more money on this old boat than I will ever re-coup, but we're making her ours and outfitted they way we want.
I'm very new to sailing and have always liked the more modern and high performance things, but I've discovered at least in sailboats, I'm a traditionalist and really like the older designs.
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Old 13-12-2014, 12:07   #79
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Re: Cost of Cruising

Island Packets are very nice and good quality. If you are comfortable on her I can't think of a reason to want anything more.
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Old 13-12-2014, 12:12   #80
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
I don't see that anyone has made that inference at all. Many of us, me and my husband included, fix up and sail old boats for a variety of reasons, but our income would easily allow us to own a much larger, newer boat if that was what we wanted to do. It's not.

I know lots and lots and LOTS of people who fall into this camp. They'd rather put their money into their homes, their kids, their investment accounts, whatever. Maybe the cruise on the old boat is done with great peace of mind because of the resources they have tucked away for a rainy day.

A lot of people just prefer the older designs, the build quality, the way they sail, the romanticism of saving a piece of bygone days, or a loyalty to a builder or designer that has long since closed up shop. Others actually enjoy working on boats, building and fixing things, and creating something that is uniquely theirs out of something that was destined for the scrap heap and find satisfaction in knowing that they saved themselves some money in doing so. (Okay...I'm describing us here....I admit it.)

Some people don't mind going on a wing and a prayer and a "we'll figure it out when we get there.." Or they do it because they have to. I admire those people in a way. They are the proverbial free spirits and there's a lot to recommend it. They have the adventures when the more conservative among us are still hanging back hedging our bets. But many others, us included, like a little more of a fall back plan and have made commitments in other areas of our lives that dictate that the boat can't be our everything. I don't think that anyone is suggesting or assuming that just because someone sails an older boat or restricts their cruising budget that they are necessarily without resources. Some of the richest people I know live like they don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. That's how they got rich in the first place.
Okay. I must have just misunderstood this from your last post:

"A lot of the people have planned for this financially for a long time and have the resources and want to do it in the best way possible. They are investing in their boats in the same way that people invest in their homes. It's not a toy that they plan to discard when the next whim hits."

I'm also sorry they can't afford to discard their boats when the whim hits. It makes it a lot easier in some cases.

I just hope they work on their sailing abilities a little. Just because you are good at sanding and paying top dollar for parts and your boat looks awesome, doesn't mean you can sail well.

The beautification project is in progress btw. I might even paint the topside of the hull instead of just the a bottom job.
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Old 13-12-2014, 12:39   #81
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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Okay. I must have just misunderstood this from your last post:

"A lot of the people have planned for this financially for a long time and have the resources and want to do it in the best way possible. They are investing in their boats in the same way that people invest in their homes. It's not a toy that they plan to discard when the next whim hits."

I just hope they work on their sailing abilities a little. Just because you are good at sanding and paying top dollar for parts and your boat looks awesome, doesn't mean you can sail well.

The beautification project is in progress btw. I might even paint the topside of the hull instead of just the a bottom job.
I don't think I understand where this idea comes from that working on boats and sailing boats are mutually exclusive, as in if you're doing one you can't be doing the other. My husband and I have done a few boat rebuilds, we've also put a lot of sailing miles under the keels of those boats. Lance was a sailing instructor at the U.S. Naval Academy and has a couple of trips to Bermuda under his belt. Most everyone who sails, even if they start out with a new boat, are going to have to devote some of their time to boat work unless they just plan to sail it until it falls apart underneath them and then move on to the next one.

The "I am a good sailor and therefore have no time to make my boat beautiful and seaworthy" makes about as little sense as "that person has a very ship shape vessel and therefore must not know anything about sailing."
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Old 13-12-2014, 12:47   #82
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Re: Cost of Cruising

Something in this thread seems odd!

thomm255 and others seem to be criticizing some of us for spending too much money on our boats and then extend the complaint with "those folks are mostly dock queens who don't sail and don't know how to sail."

But, some of us are spending lots of money on our boat's because we use them a lot and wear out stuff, stuff that seems to me to be essential. We own a big complex, comfortable, and very safe boat. I would be interested in knowing how to reduce my cost of ownership.

My example of expenditures included $6,000 for sails. I replaced sails that were 15-years old and had twice sailed from Seattle to San Diego and had spent three years cruising full time in tropical sun. IMHO we got that many years of usage because we spent a lot of money in 1999 for very well made custom sails.

Is there a suggestion that we did not need to spend money on sails? The boat is 21-years old and is sailed a lot. Is there some suggestion that we not replace the sails?

The expenditures included $4,000 for replacement of old worn out parts on the 21-year old Yanmar diesel that has 2,900 hours on it. The heat exchanger and mixing elbow are pretty important items and the diesel will not run without them. The starter is also essential and needed replacement.

The mixing elbow is supposed to be replaced every five to ten years but I got 21 out of it by careful maintenance. Eventually things do wear out, when used a lot, and have to be replaced. Or, does someone know how to avoid wear and tear?

Can someone tell me how to avoid that $4,000 expense? Do a Pardey?

We sail hard and carry a lot of big sails - the $500 halyards are relatively important and we probably cannot operate the sailboat without them. I pointed out that I purchased the halyards for a heavily discounted price and purchased less than high tech material. I did all the work myself and paid less that some here suggested I need spend.

SO - how could I have avoided the expense of replacing 480-feet of 15-year old halyards that had seen a lot of ocean miles and tropical sun?

The 20-year old autopilot, which I had already twice rebuilt, had over 20,000 miles and 5,000 hours of usage on it, and just would not work any longer. We spent $3,000 to replace it with a run of the mill Raymarine autopilot. I single-hand a lot and that auto-pilot is critical to my safe sailing.

How could I avoid the autopilot expense? Maybe someone can tell me how to singlehand a 40-foot boat at sea with no autopilot. And, YES, we do have a windvane that works perfectly.

The 21-year old prop shaft was badly galled and was frequently wearing out the packing gland material. I spent 30 or so hours polishing the prop shaft to remove the crevice corrosion but to no good result. Was there a way I could have not replace the $600 prop shaft?

The Maxprop had 1,800 hours on it since the last rebuild and had some pitted blades that needed reworking. I could have ignored that $300 expense but eventually the blades would have needed replacement at a cost of $3,000. I guess I could have avoided the $300 expense by putting my 18" 3-blade fixed prop back on the boat.

Bottom paint, here in the warm San Diego water and even more so in Mexico, is pretty important to keep the boat moveable. I manage to get 4-years out of a bottom paint job but I can not figure out any way to avoid the cost of 2-gallons of paint ($550) and the $350 yard fee to haul the boat and put her on jackstands for three days.

The expenses I list above total over $15,000 in a three year period. Please, someone tell me how I could own a 20-year old well used cruiser and not spend any of that money?

The following list of expenses seems unavoidable but maybe some of those who think we spend to much on cruising can tell me how to not spend this money:

- diesel oil ($15 every 150 hours)
- oil and fuel filters ($30 every 300 hours)
- water heater ($500 every 14-years)
- prop, shaft, strut zincs ($100 every year)
- propane ($120 a year)
- heating element in stove ($90 every 14 years)
- pressure switch on water pump ($38 every 3-years)
- light bulbs ($25 a year)

Nickels and dimes add up when you live full time on a boat in the hot sunshine!

I guess I could have spent $2,500 on the main rather than $5,800 but, I love to sail, sail hard, sail in all conditions, and really like my hi-tech flat cut fully battened main. I did have, for five years, a less expensive main with more belly and less roach. But, that sail stretched in the gusts, the draft moved aft, and I had to drag 13 or so degrees rudder around to keep from rounding up. The sail North custom made for me solved all those problems and I think the extra $4,000 I spent on it was an excellent purchase.

Who can tell me where I could have saved money or not spent money?
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Old 13-12-2014, 12:57   #83
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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I don't think I understand where this idea comes from that working on boats and sailing boats are mutually exclusive, as in if you're doing one you can't be doing the other. My husband and I have done a few boat rebuilds, we've also put a lot of sailing miles under the keels of those boats. Lance was a sailing instructor at the U.S. Naval Academy and has a couple of trips to Bermuda under his belt. Most everyone who sails, even if they start out with a new boat, are going to have to devote some of their time to boat work unless they just plan to sail it until it falls apart underneath them and then move on to the next one.

The "I am a good sailor and therefore have no time to make my boat beautiful and seaworthy" makes about as little sense as "that person has a very ship shape vessel and therefore must not know anything about sailing."
As said before, I've seen it on the Gulf Coast. Many of the cruisers were not good sailors.

Some were awesome though. I once saw this old beatup looking guy coming in Pensacola Pass with his piece of crap boat pulling his dinghy. He already had the engine on the dinghy running.

I was thinking he didn't know the pass or how strong the current was so he was prepared.

Also, I'm sorry that your husband has to be an instructor at the Naval Academy. I joined this club when I was 19, and the nice men there had very derogatory things to say about almost anything navy especially officers. Our clubhouse was on an island just off Beaufort, SC.
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Old 13-12-2014, 14:15   #84
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Re: Cost of Cruising

Check this guy. I think he must have been cruising on a low budget. Btw, does he have his lifelines hooked up?
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Old 13-12-2014, 14:41   #85
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Re: Cost of Cruising

thomm, as a former Enlisted guy I can tell you it's awfully common to complain about the service, especially the Officers. It's when the constant complaining stops, that you should worry.
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Old 13-12-2014, 14:50   #86
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Re: Cost of Cruising

I'll take a step back to that wedding cost analogy. My wife and I had a wedding that cost $20. Actually, $116 if you count the cost of the wedding dress and the engagement ring plus the two wedding band rings. We didn't put much "up front" for the wedding, but we've been working hard at maintenance for 45 good years.

During the second year of our marriage we bought our first live aboard sailboat and moved aboard the following year. We bought a new Morgan OI on the third year of our marriage in 1973. We still have a 1973 Morgan (not the same boat) and we've been working hard on maintenace for this one for 30 years.

Longevity in a relationship lowers average annual expense and increases value.
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Old 13-12-2014, 15:18   #87
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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thomm, as a former Enlisted guy I can tell you it's awfully common to complain about the service, especially the Officers. It's when the constant complaining stops, that you should worry.
I'm hoping everyone knows I was joking. Btw, the redneck drill instructors on Parris Island sometimes are not the nicest people to be around especially in the 70's.

I see and am impressed everyday by our young navy officers in their pickle suits.

That's what the guys that have been up here a long time call flight suits.

Tom
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Old 13-12-2014, 15:46   #88
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Re: Cost of Cruising

After reading four pages of this thread, I have no idea what you folks are discussing. Doesn't make a bit of sense... complete gibberish. Some woman crappin' over the side, $500 for halyards, lifelines????
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Old 13-12-2014, 16:05   #89
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Re: Cost of Cruising

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After reading four pages of this thread, I have no idea what you folks are discussing. Doesn't make a bit of sense... complete gibberish. Some woman crappin' over the side, $500 for halyards, lifelines????
There is no understanding! As Boatman said in post #28 attemping the answer in dollars is futile! This is why I presented my approach as a behavior and not a numerical budget. Different plans will suit different cruisers.
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Old 13-12-2014, 21:12   #90
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Re: Cost of Cruising

My only point is there is not one cost of cruising, but many. Some spend $10K a year. Others spend far less then a thousand. There is no right or wrong to it. It takes what your willing to spend and the time your willing to give to the project(s).

It's based on the type and size of the boat and how many systems there are on the boat. The more systems and less time you have to do the work yourself, the more its going to cost.

On the other end of the spectrum, the folks that liveaboard /cruise full time with a tiny budget, do far more work themselves, really all of it, and that does lower the costs a bit.

My earlier examples was not to cast stones, but to give examples of how I myself reduce maintenance costs by careful shopping. Of course most here have pretty deep pockets, so there is less need or desire to save funds. Thats totally fine too.
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My pockets are very shallow, so I have to cut out luxuries like a new custom set of sails and I have had to learn to do everything myself. From going up the stick, to sanding and painted the bottom (right at the top of the jobs I hate), doing electrical and plumbing repairs to a complete diesel overhaul. Had I the money to pay for the diesel repair, it would have been a $6-$10K project at the very least. The cost was $1200 with crazy blonde cat lady labor, and a small bit of my sanity... Perhaps more then a small bit .
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