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Old 21-06-2015, 20:58   #121
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by tbeargladd View Post
I once had a scenario where I was motoring south and another sail boat bearing down on me motoring north. I thought I was correct and held my position until I could see that the other sail boat would not make a course change. So I made the decision to make the course change.
Whether you know it or not, you applied rule 17. You stood on, you evaluated the situation and determined the other vessel wasn't acting as it should, so you took action. That is no different than what I've always recommended. See how simple it is to follow the rules?
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Old 21-06-2015, 21:05   #122
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

tbeargladd, actually you did exactly what the rules require.

You remained stand on until such time it was clear the give way vessel was not changing course.

In order to avoid a collision you gave up stand on status and maneuvered to pass safely.

Just like the rules suggest.

Edit. I type slow.
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Old 21-06-2015, 21:12   #123
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
There are some who would insist on the stand on position no matter what.
I think we need some context.

You still haven't explained how so many sailboats come between you and your tow.
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Old 21-06-2015, 21:56   #124
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I weary of anonymous trolls with a few posts to their credit, who wade into the deep end of a Rules discussion and start spouting off about egos. From the tortured grammar, it is very difficult to decipher what is your actual message, but it is apparent that you don't know a lot about the colregs. If it is truly of interest to you, and you wish to enter into respectful correspondence on this subject, within this forum, then you can expect to learn a great deal.
I hope you hang in here, Lodesman, as I am one who is learning a great deal. In fact, between this thread and the one Dockhead started about the tragic Shoreway/Orca collision, I have given the Rules themselves another healthy review and have re-thought assumptions & procedures on my own boat.

FWIW, it occurs to me that some of the differing opinions from very experienced mariners can perhaps be attributed to different factual scenarios, as well as different judgments as to when a risk of collision may first arise, how long a vessel should stand on before taking the required evasive maneuvers, etc. As I've stated, even with a decent knowledge of the Colregs my instinct has always been to avoid any sort of close calls with large shipping, and to accomplish this with early course changes. I don't believe these actions have created any confusion, but I am also mindful of when it's both necessary and prudent to stand on.

Thanks for your contributions.
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Old 21-06-2015, 23:47   #125
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

Lodesman, I cannot answer for those who wished to sail behind my vessel and in front of my barge, you would have to ask them. You for one, are not the arbiter of all things collregs or real life situations that are encountered, that require one to depart from the rules in order to avoid a collision or close quarters encounter. I, like all the professional mariners that I know adhere to the rules as closely as possible, taking comfort in the knowledge that most of the other professional mariners we encounter at sea are doing the same. The rub comes in when someone who has no idea of what the rules are decides one day to go to sea and mix it up with the people who do know what they are doing, at that point we have to adjust for those uninformed individuals in order to prevent a collision or some other maritime casualty, it is difficult to anticipate what an amateur is going to do next when they display by their actions they do not understand what is going on. Some out on the water do not possess the situational awareness required to keep them out of trouble. Those of us that command large vessels, or long tows with big barges have to be way ahead of the average pleasure boater in anticipating the next maneuver, like the chess player, we have to be at least 5 moves ahead of our current position and if possible 10 to 15, and that is no small feat with all the different variables that are at play at any given moment.
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Old 22-06-2015, 06:13   #126
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone tried to sail between me and my barge.

I know what you mean there, I have had boats cross between my tug and my tow too often. maybe they think they have the right of way and are required to stand on against the barge.

Once off Miami I was southbound making about 3.5 to 4 kts and a small boat came up, milled around a bit then started across in front if it. He hit the barges bridal and then became pinned against the bow of the barge. I rang down for half ahead and called the deck crew to get the small boat ready as I thought we were going to have to rescue these people. They finally managed to back their boat off and limped back towards Miami. I called the coasties and reported I had been in a collision at sea. These people were lucky as I was loaded with 40 thousand tons of scrap and the rake was submerged. Had I been lighter I am sure the rake would have rolled them under. I have no idea what in the world they were thinking or trying to do.

Rule 2(b) is often called the General Prudential Rule or Common Sense Rule, unfortunately at times there is a lack of both.
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Old 22-06-2015, 06:28   #127
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
Lodesman, I cannot answer for those who wished to sail behind my vessel and in front of my barge, you would have to ask them. You for one, are not the arbiter of all things collregs or real life situations that are encountered, that require one to depart from the rules in order to avoid a collision or close quarters encounter. I, like all the professional mariners that I know adhere to the rules as closely as possible, taking comfort in the knowledge that most of the other professional mariners we encounter at sea are doing the same. The rub comes in when someone who has no idea of what the rules are decides one day to go to sea and mix it up with the people who do know what they are doing, at that point we have to adjust for those uninformed individuals in order to prevent a collision or some other maritime casualty, it is difficult to anticipate what an amateur is going to do next when they display by their actions they do not understand what is going on. Some out on the water do not possess the situational awareness required to keep them out of trouble. Those of us that command large vessels, or long tows with big barges have to be way ahead of the average pleasure boater in anticipating the next maneuver, like the chess player, we have to be at least 5 moves ahead of our current position and if possible 10 to 15, and that is no small feat with all the different variables that are at play at any given moment.
Very well stated.
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Old 22-06-2015, 18:07   #128
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Thanks for your contributions.
You're most welcome. I thank you for your input too.
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Old 22-06-2015, 18:32   #129
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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You've obviously read what I wrote; you quoted what I wrote, but you clearly don't understand it. I didn't say the tug wasn't displaying a diamond; I said he wasn't showing ball-diamond-ball - a very specific signal that would indicate that he is restricted in his ability to manoeuvre (RAM). The chunk you took from rule 10 has no bearing on what I was saying - that a towing vessel that is not RAM, is no different than a power-driven vessel as far as the Steering and Sailing rules apply.
Sorry I wasn't thinking clearly I did understand what you were saying and you did hint to the possibility of the tug being in a TSS I was backing you in stating part about rule ten being in effect so yes he was no longer RAM but now he is in a TSS which changes the rules again. Here in the Puget soundwe have to pay more attention to TSS rules than most of the others.
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Old 22-06-2015, 18:45   #130
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
Lodesman, I cannot answer for those who wished to sail behind my vessel and in front of my barge, you would have to ask them. You for one, are not the arbiter of all things collregs or real life situations that are encountered, that require one to depart from the rules in order to avoid a collision or close quarters encounter. I, like all the professional mariners that I know adhere to the rules as closely as possible, taking comfort ...
I don't believe I've ever claimed to be "the arbiter of all things collregs(sic)". However this is a discussion about colregs, on a forum devoted to boating, so one would think that providing opinions on that subject, or asking questions pertaining to said subject would be expected, if not required for the online community to thrive. If you don't agree, then one has to wonder about your motivation for being here.

You posted a picture and a cryptic comment - surely there's a story there, but I'm afraid it's only known to you. I asked for context, and I'm certain others here would appreciate getting the back-story.

Previously you made a comment about many occurrences of sailboats (I assumed sailboats as you said 'sail') trying to sail between you and your barge. Since I would think in most cases you would be the give way vessel, I was trying to work out why the sailboats would be taking action, obviously so close as to cut the gap between tug and tow. If I knew the identities of the other skippers, I would ask them, but seeing as I don't I asked you why you had not taken sufficient avoiding action that should have prevented any sailboats from tangling your tow-line. Perhaps I'm not seeing the whole picture. Or perhaps the question made you uncomfortable, and that's why you chose to make snide comments instead.

As a professional mariner, we could all benefit from any meaningful insights you could provide. I'll leave it to you, if you wish to do so.
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Old 22-06-2015, 19:06   #131
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

In the typical scenario where a sailboat simply doesn't realise that the tug is towing the barge behind it, and cuts between thr tug and her tow, perhaps you could explain what avoiding action the tug could take.

Sod all, I would assume.
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Old 22-06-2015, 19:07   #132
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Sorry I wasn't thinking clearly I did understand what you were saying and you did hint to the possibility of the tug being in a TSS I was backing you in stating part about rule ten being in effect so yes he was no longer RAM but now he is in a TSS which changes the rules again. Here in the Puget soundwe have to pay more attention to TSS rules than most of the others.
No problem, but the TSS comment wasn't about the tug in the photo; it was offered as a possible reason markpierce hasn't seen tugs give way to pleasure vessels in SF Bay. Based on the attitude displayed by some of the tug-drivers on the forum, I might have another explanation
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Old 22-06-2015, 19:14   #133
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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In the scenario where a sailboat is cutting between a tug and her tow, perhaps you could explain what avoiding action the tug could take. Sod all, I would assume.
If the sailboat got to the position that it could be cutting between the tug and tow, then I suggest the tug likely failed to take early and substantial action to keep clear of the sailboat, as is required by rule 18. That's not the only possibility; there are certainly enough WAFIs out there, who are skilled at turning any straightforward situation into a total cluster.
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Old 22-06-2015, 19:15   #134
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

I admit I'm not a tug driver I'm just a retired navy engineer all my tow experience is from the pit.
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Old 22-06-2015, 19:50   #135
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

Before my self-imposed Colregs refresher course over the past couple of days, I had forgotten for some reason that tug & tows are generally treated as ordinary power vessels unless they are displaying RAM signals. Hopefully I got that right now. I'd be curious to know what set of circumstances gives rise to that privilege. To a layman, a tug & tow looks like a situation which might often if not always result in restricted maneuvering ability, but I'm not a professional. Maybe the ones who are can weigh in.

Once again I'm left agreeing with Lodesman on a theoretical level since the Rules are quite clear. As a practical matter, however, I figure that tow operators in these circumstances have their hands full, and getting out of every sailboat's way is probably much easier said than done. Accordingly, even if stand on under the Rules I always make sure to keep my boat well clear of a tug & tow. Then again, I can certainly see where not "standing still" can generate unwanted confusion. As the commercial skippers have pointed out, how are they to determine on the fly which of the many sailing vessels out there understand the Rules?
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