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Old 22-06-2015, 22:50   #136
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
how are they to determine on the fly which of the many sailing vessels out there understand the Rules?
Even more to the point - at least here on San Francisco Bay - How are they to take evasive action for each of the plethora of sailboats and power boats on the bay and going every which way, changing course for no reason fathomable to the tug operator? And why should he try to miss us when he has no idea where we'll be and on which course in a few moments?

He is trying to make a living. We are having fun. He can change course only sklowly or slow down at even a slower rate. We can usuall make a 180 turn in a boat length or two, a 45 turn in about half a boat length. Common courtesy suggests that we allow him to continue earning a living.

And for those that aren't courteous, remember that if there is a collision he will undoubtably come out better!
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Old 22-06-2015, 23:15   #137
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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And for those that aren't courteous, remember that if there is a collision he will undoubtably come out better!
He'd likely fare better physically no doubt, but maybe not professionally if it was later determined that he was the give way vessel.

I'm still haunted from an otherwise beautiful Fall sailing day on LI Sound when word came over Ch. 16 of a sailboat that had gotten tangled up in a tow line, and a fatality had ensued. If you're not trained or used to seeing a tug & tow, I suspect the presence of the tow line is not readily apparent to many recreational sailors. I personally steer well clear, but also realize that may not always be the correct or most prudent answer under the Rules.
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Old 23-06-2015, 03:15   #138
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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And why should he try to miss us when he has no idea where we'll be and on which course in a few moments?
Well if you and all the others would just follow the Rules, then he would know where you'll be and on which course in a few moments. That's kind of the point of them.

Some people just don't bother trying to learn the rules, then justify that by saying the other guy is working for a living. Like that makes some kind of sense. So now you want to make the poor working stiff's job harder by leaving him to guess who's going to do what the rules say they should, and who's going to make it up as they go along.

You've heard from one of the pro's that they need to think 5, 10, 15 steps ahead. So when you decide to not stand on where required, you are probably mucking up the plan he had long before devised to deal with you - which possibly also included a plan to deal with the next vessel(s) along, and/or with some aspect of navigation.

As an aside, tugs don't always point in the intended or actual direction of travel for the tug/tow combination, so what you might think is his apparent course is quite misleading. Whether you're give way or stand on to a tug, you should take that into account with your actions, and make sure you check and recheck his compass bearing frequently, until he's past and clear.
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Old 23-06-2015, 09:36   #139
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
In the typical scenario where a sailboat simply doesn't realise that the tug is towing the barge behind it, and cuts between thr tug and her tow, perhaps you could explain what avoiding action the tug could take.

Sod all, I would assume.
I had the same question. There is no evasive action a tug with tow could take other than the radio and horn. I can't imagine anyone sailing between a tug and tow but feel sure it has happened.
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Old 23-06-2015, 20:23   #140
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

I remember my first Bullship race, El Toros from Sausalito to St. Francis Yacht Club - right accross the gate. As I was crossing the tidal rip at the north end of the Golden Gate Bridge a tug was dead ahead of me. I fell off to take his stern at the same time he stopped and floated east with the flood current and staying dead ahead of me. Then as I headed up to take his bow he again started moving westward to leave the bay - and staying dead ahead of me. The two of us continues this dance until I got close enough for a guy on the tug to grab my mast and lead me around the tug's stern. I wasn't in the running on that race so a dropping out of the race for getting assistance was no big deal. I just thought it funny that he managed to stay directly in my path. Of course the guys on the tug probably thought I was crazy for continually changing course to hit him!
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Old 23-06-2015, 20:59   #141
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Well if you and all the others would just follow the Rules, then he would know where you'll be and on which course in a few moments. That's kind of the point of them.

Some people just don't bother trying to learn the rules, then justify that by saying the other guy is working for a living. Like that makes some kind of sense. So now you want to make the poor working stiff's job harder by leaving him to guess who's going to do what the rules say they should, and who's going to make it up as they go along.

You've heard from one of the pro's that they need to think 5, 10, 15 steps ahead. So when you decide to not stand on where required, you are probably mucking up the plan he had long before devised to deal with you - which possibly also included a plan to deal with the next vessel(s) along, and/or with some aspect of navigation.

As an aside, tugs don't always point in the intended or actual direction of travel for the tug/tow combination, so what you might think is his apparent course is quite misleading. Whether you're give way or stand on to a tug, you should take that into account with your actions, and make sure you check and recheck his compass bearing frequently, until he's past and clear.
You've been dealing with open ocean scenarios and a desired CPA of a mile or more. Sailing in San Francisco Bay such a CPA is usually unrealistic. And the tug or commercial ship cannot maintain course for very long because he is traveling a course that, assuming coming in the gate, is either going to slowly turn north (to port) or south (to starboard). And I will probably be tacking heading eventually west or on a run going east. Otherwise I usually travel outside of the channel unless crossing the channel is necessary to get to my destination. I guess my navigation techniques, the techniques I use to avoid collision with commercial vessels, are not too bad since I am still alive at 80 years old.

OTOH, when I used to race my relations with competitors were not always so generous.

Coleregs are intended for vessels at sea, but the inland rules also state that I am to avoid a collision by taking whatever action is necessary in a timely manner. Often that "timely manner" is within 10 yards of a vessel the size of a normal ocean going tug. Further from a container ship - not because I need the room but because I don't want to cause the skipper of the container ship unnecessary worry.
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Old 23-06-2015, 22:39   #142
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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He'd likely fare better physically no doubt, but maybe not professionally if it was later determined that he was the give way vessel.

I'm still haunted from an otherwise beautiful Fall sailing day on LI Sound when word came over Ch. 16 of a sailboat that had gotten tangled up in a tow line, and a fatality had ensued. If you're not trained or used to seeing a tug & tow, I suspect the presence of the tow line is not readily apparent to many recreational sailors. I personally steer well clear, but also realize that may not always be the correct or most prudent answer under the Rules.
I'm also saddened at such an event. I was going to say accident, but one can't call going between a tug and it's tow an accident.

As far as the other, I do care if he loses his license. But I care more that my passengers and I don't lose their lives. And the likelihood is that he wouldn't be found to be at fault because he's a professional skipper and I'm only a recreational sailor. He probably knows what he's doing better than I know what I should be doing. That's the way I see it - and the judge will probably see it the same way.
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Old 23-06-2015, 23:01   #143
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

Most or at least many probably don't even realise tug and tow are connected and that they are connected by something that can kill.

Swinging off the berth in Cairns many years ago ... 15,000 dwt ship .... ship's line to a tug frd.... a 'tinny' full of people gayly passed between ship and tug in mid swing....

Of course if he had come to grief we would have copped the blame as neither tug nor tow were showing appropriate RAM signals.

Back to the original incident... naval architects have a lot to answer for regarding bridge design esp in regard to restricted visibility due to bits and bobs for'd of the bridge on far too many ships.
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Old 24-06-2015, 01:06   #144
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Back to the original incident... naval architects have a lot to answer for regarding bridge design esp in regard to restricted visibility due to bits and bobs for'd of the bridge on far too many ships.
That's a good point! We could argue some ships in this regard are a violation against the Colregs.. As well as deck sweeping sails blocking the visibility to lee..
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Old 24-06-2015, 02:24   #145
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Well if you and all the others would just follow the Rules, then he would know where you'll be and on which course in a few moments. That's kind of the point of them.

Some people just don't bother trying to learn the rules, then justify that by saying the other guy is working for a living. Like that makes some kind of sense. So now you want to make the poor working stiff's job harder by leaving him to guess who's going to do what the rules say they should, and who's going to make it up as they go along.

You've heard from one of the pro's that they need to think 5, 10, 15 steps ahead. So when you decide to not stand on where required, you are probably mucking up the plan he had long before devised to deal with you - which possibly also included a plan to deal with the next vessel(s) along, and/or with some aspect of navigation.
Words to live by!
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Old 24-06-2015, 18:02   #146
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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You've been dealing with open ocean scenarios and a desired CPA of a mile or more...Coleregs are intended for vessels at sea, ...
A lot of narrow channels in the open ocean, are there? Obviously there's a different dynamic when vessels meet in open water, than when they meet in confined waters, but the rules apply in both. Some would even say more rules apply in confined waters. I don't know where you got the idea I desire a CPA of a mile or more - I'm the guy that keeps telling everyone they don't need to turn tail and run for the hills when they see a smokestack on the horizon

Anyway I can only hope to be able to keep sailing when I'm 80 - good on ye!
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Old 24-06-2015, 19:07   #147
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

This is an interesting thread. In northern Puget Sound, we have clearly marked traffic lanes. Commercial traffic normally stays in those lanes. There is good cell service so I can see fast movers on the phone long before they are visible to the eye (clearly not applicable off shore). Exceptions are National Security movements and tugs towing that are too slow to use the lanes. Checking relative bearing is normally useless because the 20kt traffic is not really visible far enough away. Depending on where I am headed and the immediate conditions of wind and current I may use part of the traffic lane but will plan to tack plenty early to be well clear of the traffic lanes, with my intent to be out of the way clearly evident. Navy traffic is more difficult..their perimeter needs have frequently literally prevented my forward progress till they are out of the area. It is also useful to contact the controlling traffic agency for advisories on vessels speed and intended destination. Vigilance is required at all times. Nothing less will suffice.
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Old 25-06-2015, 01:57   #148
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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This is an interesting thread. In northern Puget Sound, we have clearly marked traffic lanes. Commercial traffic normally stays in those lanes. There is good cell service so I can see fast movers on the phone long before they are visible to the eye (clearly not applicable off shore). Exceptions are National Security movements and tugs towing that are too slow to use the lanes. Checking relative bearing is normally useless because the 20kt traffic is not really visible far enough away. Depending on where I am headed and the immediate conditions of wind and current I may use part of the traffic lane but will plan to tack plenty early to be well clear of the traffic lanes, with my intent to be out of the way clearly evident. Navy traffic is more difficult..their perimeter needs have frequently literally prevented my forward progress till they are out of the area. It is also useful to contact the controlling traffic agency for advisories on vessels speed and intended destination. Vigilance is required at all times. Nothing less will suffice.
Collision avoidance is actually much easier in confined waters with defined traffic lanes. Just stay out of the lanes, and cross them only when there's no traffic. Do it before a risk of collision ever arises and you're not required to stand on.
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Old 25-06-2015, 06:33   #149
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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In the typical scenario where a sailboat simply doesn't realise that the tug is towing the barge behind it, and cuts between thr tug and her tow, perhaps you could explain what avoiding action the tug could take.

Sod all, I would assume.
If there is time you can slow the tug down and sink the wire, if it's a hawser boat they tend to float so there isn't much you can do. The barge will carry it's way for a bit so if they get fouled they're in serious trouble.






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...Coleregs are intended for vessels at sea, but the inland rules also state that I am to avoid a collision by taking whatever action is necessary in a timely manner. Often that "timely manner" is within 10 yards of a vessel the size of a normal ocean going tug. Further from a container ship - not because I need the room but because I don't want to cause the skipper of the container ship unnecessary worry.
10 yards isn't nearly enough for any commercial vessel. I understand close quarters will occur in racing but there's absolutely no reason to get that close, at that distance you've already caused a lot of worry.




If you're not sure what to do give them a call on 13, we appreciate a heads up as to your intentions rather then trying to guess if you're going to tack and cross back in front of me (again). The general feel of the last few posts is that we shouldn't ship anything by water. The notion that a collision is solely the responsibility of one party is ridiculous. Rule 2 makes that clear. I can't tell you how many times vessels have failed to stand on when they should, or stopped and tacked directly in front of me and my tow. I'm gray at 44 for a reason and not all of it is my wife's fault.
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Old 25-06-2015, 09:25   #150
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Re: Container Ship and Saliboats

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I'm gray at 44 for a reason and not all of it is my wife's fault.
Let me guess you have teen boys that just discovered girls to. That's what caused the snow on my roof
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