Comparing diesel vrs electric propulsion(DIY/Production) in terms of resell value

[w1651]

Interesting how everyone on here against electric has yet to even go for a sail on a electric boat yet. Not to mention hope everyone on here without electric knows what the costs are without any experience using one.
Now I know how the wright Bros felt at kitty hawk.Great company I'm in.

By the way 10 to 20 miles or less by motor is NOT Sailing it is motor sailing.

[44'cruisingcat]

I've been for a sail on a diesel/electric boat. Sailed just like any other boat. Motoring wasn't as quiet as some here suggest - The electric motors that boat was fitted with emitted a distinctive whine. And once the diesel genset started, it was no quieter than a diesel engine.


And for the cost, the thrust was just adequate. You'd certainly get a LOT more push per dollar from ICEs.

[Jim Cate]

Interesting how everyone on here against electric has yet to even go for a sail on a electric boat ye

Some folks can look at physics, do some mild calculations and reach valid conclusions on such subjects. And in a more general sense, I can determine that I don't want to try a wing suit without ever putting one on and jumping off of a cliff.

I can understand your enthusiasm for something that you like and feel comfortable with. Many of us with considerable cruising experience know that pure electric drive simply fails to supply what we need in the way of auxiliary power. We can also see that the hybrid alternative adds both cost and complexity to equal pure diesel power.

Snide remarks about real sailors not needing engines except for entering and leaving marinas fail to consider that many of us almost never go into marinas, almost never have access to shore power, and sometimes are forced to motor considerable distances. Purist ideals of anchoring and waiting for wind, or short tacking along narrow channels, often with heavy opposing traffic reflect lack of cruising experience. And before someone pipes up about the Pardeys not needing an engine, etc, they were in rather small vessels, more suited to maneuvering under sail in tight places than typical cruising boats, and they did indeed often accept tows from folks with engines.

Electric propulsion may be the wave of the future, but that wave has yet to reach shore and become useful to surfers!

Jim

[Terra Nova]

Jim--good post.

[DumnMad]

Electric is feasible for cruising on the OP's 27ft Bristol:
As long as the sailor has plenty of solar panels that can be stored away when the wind is blowing.(to clear the decks.)
The sailor is very knowledgeable about battery-electrics.
The sailor is excellent at weather forcasting.
The sailor is happy with long periods of drifting with no wind.
They are excellent at water and food rationing and managing their health under both stormy and becalmed conditions.
The boat is not required to enter restricted waters against the tide or wind.
Sees their voyages as scientific challenges rather than a leisurely pastime.

Somethwhat insane for a heavier vessel.

[Jesse]

I find electric propulsion interesting and pleased that some sailors enjoy advancing the tech and having fun with it at the same time. I actually enjoy the sound of diesels, and the associated smells aren't offensive to me at all. Current fuel prices and availability of parts and services plus range and resale pretty much seal the deal for me.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by w1651

Interesting how everyone on here against electric has yet to even go for a sail on a electric boat yet.

As said, an electric boat isn't going to sail any differently than the same boat with an ICE and I doubt the handling around the doc would be much different either.

Originally Posted by w1651

Not to mention hope everyone on here without electric knows what the costs are without any experience using one.

Sorry but this statement is borderline silly. All it takes to know the costs is an understanding of basic math. Anyone can look at price sheets and add up exactly what it costs to buy a motor, controller, batteries and all the little bits and pieces you need to install electric in a boat. For comparison, the costs to buy, install, use and maintain an ICE are also well known.

Originally Posted by w1651

Now I know how the wright Bros felt at kitty hawk.Great company I'm in.

You are quite correct. You are in great company. Lots of the forum members (and I am not referring to myself) have many years experience and many thousands of miles on the water... sailing.

Originally Posted by w1651

By the way 10 to 20 miles or less by motor is NOT Sailing it is motor sailing.

Wrong. Motorsailing is using the engine while simultaneously using the sails. Using power alone, whether it's a half mile to the dock or 100 miles across the ocean is motoring.

Really don't understand why you have to be so defensive about the subject. It has been acknowledged by almost everyone on this thread that electric is an excellent option for certain applications. For other applications not so much. It's a matter of using the right tool for the job.

If you're day sailing and just need to get from dock to channel then electric can be a great option. If you're cruising long distances in varying conditions, remote locations, tricky channels or any of 100 other potentially difficult circumstances then it seems that 99% of the sailors agree that electric is not as good a tool as an ICE.

One last comment, just because one has a motor and the ability to use it to motor a long distance doesn't mean it has to be used every time the wind goes light. I've personally spent days at sea in calm to light airs working what wind I could find for every knot I could squeeze out. I've also cranked the engine on a boat and motored out of a calm that would have kept me another week on a passage and am not in the least ashamed that I did.

[goat]

One thing that kind of bugs me about the "real sailors don't use engines" argument is the way the electrical regeneration works. In effect, you leave the transmission in gear at a set speed and the dragging or the prop through the water charges the batteries. Once you slow down to the set speed, the electric takes over and propels the boat until the wind picks up, or you run out of juice. That actually sounds more like motor sailing to me.

Someday, someone will build a sailboat specifically for electrical propulsion, with the batteries replacing lead as ballast and the sails acting as solar panels. That will be an interesting concept.

For the OP on a small boat (like mine) the conversion may work if he backs it up with a sculling oar and realizes the limitations up front and, as others have pointed out, there are many.

Your boat, your decision. Personally, I'm waiting for battery technology to catch up first.

goat

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by w1651

Interesting how everyone on here against electric has yet to even go for a sail on a electric boat yet. Who's against electric? I would love a viable electric boat with similar capabilities and cost to an IC engine. I haven't heard anyone else suggest otherwise.Not to mention hope everyone on here without electric knows what the costs are without any experience using one. So when you walk into a car dealership, you just trust the salesman because you can't check what comparable prices and performance are without buying first? The facts are all out there for electric drivetrains. If we've made a mistake, please share where the mistake is.
Now I know how the wright Bros felt at kitty hawk.Great company I'm in.

By the way 10 to 20 miles or less by motor is NOT Sailing it is motor sailing.

If you want to play the purist, I suggest a sculling oar as the boat will sail better without any prop in the water creating drag.

Reality if you get the owners of all the 30-50' production cruising boats and check sailing vs motoring, I would be shocked if the average is less 70% of miles with the motor running. So for the typical cruising boat, people expect to be able to motor reliably significant distances on demand. Knock them out of the potential buyers and the law of supply and demand says it's going to knock down the sales price. Since they are pretty much all after market DIY, that will knock the sales price down even more.

I anxiously await the day electric becomes cost competitive but I'm going to go cruising in the mean time.

[grjfield]

Originally Posted by SeaSon

Please tell us more about your conversion. Why, cost, upside, downside. All others have opinions, but you have experience. it seems like you have all of the power backup options in place ...

Happy to!
Why... lots of reasons..quieter, safer, more reliable, less maintenance, less smelly, no more diesel engine, gas tank, gas cans, oil, oily bilge.

Cost... If I was concerned with cost, I wouldnt have bought a boat! lol
Seriously .. cost of the saildrive + system was reasonable for the functionality provided. I bought 8-6v deep cycle lead acid batteries (235 AmH) which should give me about 30-40 miles which will meet my day sailing needs. I'll upgrade to Lithiums once these go in 5-7 years. By then I expect Lithiums to be better value(or whatever the latest is). I usually only plan to go out sailing when I know there's wind so unless racing, I will use regen. If there's no wind...I'll enjoy the view until its time to go home. If I had to meet deadlines and arrival times I guess i would have bought a power boat! (No offense to the power boaters...I'm just not in a hurry at this point.)

Upside...(see above) plus I think as battery technology progresses it will even make more sense. I've reserved a Tesla Powerwall which I hope to adapt to the marine environment as a range extender. If it doesnt work..I'll use in my home.
No more sourcing parts for the diesel. 1 less thru hull.

Downside...I will have to carry a small gas generator if I ever expect to cruise outside my range limit (assumes no wind or sun so my regen and solars will need an assist.) About the only other downside with my current configuration is that any appreciable water into the cabin with likely find the electric motor as it sits at the lowest point.... The Oceanvolt unit is enclosed so would not have this problem. While this is a remote possibility, I intend to build an waterproof enclosure around the motor (with a small pump) so that the water depth would have to get to about 1' in the cabin before its an issue. If It gets more than that, I expect I'll have bigger issues (like patching the hole in the hull!!).


... bit of history..
I bought the boat knowing the existing Sillette Sonic saildrive was not 100%. I JB-welded it in the hopes I might get a year out of it. 5 years later it finally decided it had lived a good life and let me know! I had spent the last year or 2 looking at electric options. Whisperdrive, Oceanvolt, Electric Yacht, 2- Cruise R4 Torqeedo (2*8 hp).
While I initially thought Torqeedo was the most convenient solution as I could remove the saildrive at my leisure, I was not impressed with the Torqeedo organization in the NW. You would think they would at least return phone calls to a prospect. Having said that, I later had an issue with my Torqeedo 1003 dinghy motor and their rep in Seattle looked after it without drama under warranty. Its a great dinghy motor by the way! Love it!
I then considered Oceanvolt and it looked like a premium product. However they were relatively new to North America and while the eastern USA rep was engaged, I worried about the timing getting parts from Europe if needed. Oceanvolt came with its own saildrive so I knew the full system would likely be great. One negative at the time was that Oceanvolt was changing their product so I wasnt sure I wanted to be a test case for a new product.
Whisperdrive was quickly discounted.
Finally I was able to source a great Sillette Sonic electric saildrive in the US. With this acquired, Electric Yacht's product seemed to be worth considering. They now also supply saildrives. At the time they were only supplying them to boat manufacturers. I checked out their products and customers and their current customers were very happy with the products and even more so with the support provided. ( I have found the same.) They were price competitive with Oceanvolt. Probably the clincher was that they agreed to build a rig so their motor meshed perfectly with the saildrive. 4 bolts and their system just 'worked'.

regards
Gerard

[hellosailor]

"Does electric production based systems increase the boat value more so than diesel? What about DIY ones? "

Anything "oddball" including DIY is going to make 90% of the market walk away from whatever you've got. So yeah, that should pretty much low the resale value to hell and back again, when 90% of the prospective buyers simply won't look at your boat.
Or, they'll subtract $15-25 grand from your price, to account for the yard removing your kludge and installing the original style equipment again.

Just one man's opinion. You might find some creative thinker who'll gladly pay whatever you ask for that unique ecological electric engine.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by w1651

Interesting how everyone on here against electric has yet to even go for a sail on a electric boat yet. Not to mention hope everyone on here without electric knows what the costs are without any experience using one.
Now I know how the wright Bros felt at kitty hawk.Great company I'm in.

By the way 10 to 20 miles or less by motor is NOT Sailing it is motor sailing.

What I find so interesting is that you pigeon hole people without knowing their history. Since I am a vocal critic of electrical propulsion I assume I fall in your group.

However not only have I sailed on an electric boat I have owned one. For a limited use boat, where the tradeoffs are worth it electric is a very reasonable option, but it has severe limitations that must be taken into account. In my case I needed to move a 30' 3600lbs race boat in and out of the harbor, about 300 yards, then could plug it in at the end of the day. Electric worked great.

But I also had an outboard we schlept on when we were doing deliveries.

[SeaSon]

Originally Posted by grjfield

Happy to!
Why... lots of reasons..quieter, safer, more reliable, less maintenance, less smelly, no more diesel engine, gas tank, gas cans, oil, oily bilge.

Cost... If I was concerned with cost, I wouldnt have bought a boat! lol
Seriously .. cost of the saildrive + system was reasonable for the functionality provided. I bought 8-6v deep cycle lead acid batteries (235 AmH) which should give me about 30-40 miles which will meet my day sailing needs. I'll upgrade to Lithiums once these go in 5-7 years. By then I expect Lithiums to be better value(or whatever the latest is). I usually only plan to go out sailing when I know there's wind so unless racing, I will use regen. If there's no wind...I'll enjoy the view until its time to go home. If I had to meet deadlines and arrival times I guess i would have bought a power boat! (No offense to the power boaters...I'm just not in a hurry at this point.)

Upside...(see above) plus I think as battery technology progresses it will even make more sense. I've reserved a Tesla Powerwall which I hope to adapt to the marine environment as a range extender. If it doesnt work..I'll use in my home.
No more sourcing parts for the diesel. 1 less thru hull.

Downside...I will have to carry a small gas generator if I ever expect to cruise outside my range limit (assumes no wind or sun so my regen and solars will need an assist.) About the only other downside with my current configuration is that any appreciable water into the cabin with likely find the electric motor as it sits at the lowest point.... The Oceanvolt unit is enclosed so would not have this problem. While this is a remote possibility, I intend to build an waterproof enclosure around the motor (with a small pump) so that the water depth would have to get to about 1' in the cabin before its an issue. If It gets more than that, I expect I'll have bigger issues (like patching the hole in the hull!!).


... bit of history..
I bought the boat knowing the existing Sillette Sonic saildrive was not 100%. I JB-welded it in the hopes I might get a year out of it. 5 years later it finally decided it had lived a good life and let me know! I had spent the last year or 2 looking at electric options. Whisperdrive, Oceanvolt, Electric Yacht, 2- Cruise R4 Torqeedo (2*8 hp).
While I initially thought Torqeedo was the most convenient solution as I could remove the saildrive at my leisure, I was not impressed with the Torqeedo organization in the NW. You would think they would at least return phone calls to a prospect. Having said that, I later had an issue with my Torqeedo 1003 dinghy motor and their rep in Seattle looked after it without drama under warranty. Its a great dinghy motor by the way! Love it!
I then considered Oceanvolt and it looked like a premium product. However they were relatively new to North America and while the eastern USA rep was engaged, I worried about the timing getting parts from Europe if needed. Oceanvolt came with its own saildrive so I knew the full system would likely be great. One negative at the time was that Oceanvolt was changing their product so I wasnt sure I wanted to be a test case for a new product.
Whisperdrive was quickly discounted.
Finally I was able to source a great Sillette Sonic electric saildrive in the US. With this acquired, Electric Yacht's product seemed to be worth considering. They now also supply saildrives. At the time they were only supplying them to boat manufacturers. I checked out their products and customers and their current customers were very happy with the products and even more so with the support provided. ( I have found the same.) They were price competitive with Oceanvolt. Probably the clincher was that they agreed to build a rig so their motor meshed perfectly with the saildrive. 4 bolts and their system just 'worked'.

regards
Gerard

Awesome Gerard, thank you. 2 last questions, what size boat do you have and what was your all in cost with batteries and install (approximate - just to give me a idea)? I wouldn't expect it to be cheaper than a small diesel, but money isn't always the #1 consideration. Sometimes it's the coolness factor.

Thanks, John

[grjfield]

I should say I dont think electric is for everyone...I could have saved $$$ just replacing the saildrive as my diesel always started and ran great. However I guess for the same reason some guys plunk down $$$ for Tesla, I felt the need to try electric. I think it will work for me. If it doesnt, I'll be the first to let you know. For now...it does seem cool!
For the record...I'm probably an 'electric junkie'.



Vessel- 40' X Yacht (1 ton).. stripped out for racing. Its about 12000lbs.

$ in Cdn...

Batteries: Crown 8- 6 volt deep cycle ~$150 Cdn *8 = $1200
Saildrive ~$2000
Electric Yacht system (motor, controller, throttle, monitor, fuse, switch, relay)
$7000
Probably spent another $800 on cabling, chargers, etc

Yard charges for haul out, land time, supplies for saildrive install. ( I did the removal/install of the saildrive but had the yard do the final glassing in of the saildrive. ~ $1000

[SeaSon]

Originally Posted by grjfield

I should say I dont think electric is for everyone...I could have saved $$$ just replacing the saildrive as my diesel always started and ran great. However I guess for the same reason some guys plunk down $$$ for Tesla, I felt the need to try electric. I think it will work for me. If it doesnt, I'll be the first to let you know. For now...it does seem cool!
For the record...I'm probably an 'electric junkie'.



Vessel- 40' X Yacht (1 ton).. stripped out for racing. Its about 12000lbs.

$ in Cdn...

Batteries: Crown 8- 6 volt deep cycle ~$150 Cdn *8 = $1200
Saildrive ~$2000
Electric Yacht system (motor, controller, throttle, monitor, fuse, switch, relay)
$7000
Probably spent another $800 on cabling, chargers, etc

Yard charges for haul out, land time, supplies for saildrive install. ( I did the removal/install of the saildrive but had the yard do the final glassing in of the saildrive. ~ $1000

Thanks! Best part of this thread! Very educational.