Collapsing brokerage market for Monohulls

[Colin A]

Originally Posted by Polux

The Drop in price on 90's boats has probably to do with people buying more new boats, selling the ones they had, that probably were newer. More offer for the same buyers (the ones that buy used boats) make the prices going down and the older boats are the ones that suffer more specially if the price is not very far away from the ones of the 5 to 15 year's old ones that entered the used market because the owners had bought new boats.

You cannot have two ways without increasing the number of people having boats : If more new boats enter the market, used boats become cheaper and for what I know the number of sailors with sailing boats is not increasing on the US, contrary to the number of the ones that have motorboats.

Regarding a refit on a 20 year old boat, it can make sense, depending on the state of the boat (probably not in what regards final boat value) if one intends to keep it for many years but you should not forget that the fiberglass part of the boat, hull and cabin represents about 1/3 of the boat price. All the rest you have to change and on a 20 year boat, for having it as new (offshore or bluewater) you have to change many many things and others will keep appearing needed maintenance. The chances are that in many 20 year old boats not even the standing rig has been changed.

I don't think sales of new cruising boats in the US are high enough to justify the drop. We are seeing less people using boats for week long trips and more for weekends and day trips hence the big drop in US cruising boat sales. (remember full time and long distance cruisers are a small but very vocal part of boat buyers) I think the drop in values relates to the drop in participation in sailing and sail boat owning. I know more and more former boat owners who have switched to chartering or left the sport all together.

Now the data shows participation is high but I'm curious about that all the sailing clubs I know of here in New England are having a problem keeping and getting new members.

Here is some of the data
http://www.sailingworld.com/sites/sa..._2015_data.pdf

Also I was talking to an industry colleague who was working on an article on recycling boats he said during the recession the number of boats leaving the market fell in half (destroyed abandoned) and has stayed that way as more and more get refitted instead of buying new.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I always look to pay the least amount for a quality product. The person selling doesn't have to agree to the price being offered.

Just because someone else got themselves into a mess, doesn't mean me or anyone needs to bail them out.

That's right, "F%^^* everyone else, it's all about me."

Even over a non necessity like a rec boat.

No wonder.

[mr336]

Im in the market for a cat. I was expecting to do some negotiating in the process but didn't know I would fall under the selfish f&%k category. Guess I'll offer the seller full price and pay the commission too.

[Clipper4730]

Interesting thread although I don't think anyone is accounting for the fact that most of these so called good deals are former charter boats. We really wanted a cat, and about the only way we could afford one was a former charter boat. We looked at many and to say we were disappointed is an understatement. Most if not all were in need of significant refit, engines, sails, ac units and list goes on. The few non chartered cats out there were waaaay out of our budget. Add to the fact that the charter cats didn't really translate well into a cruising boat. Too many cabins too many heads not enough storage or tankage. After owning our present boat for a few years and the cost of maintaining a mono with associated marina expenses I can't imagine the headache it would have been to take on a former charter boat not to mention the added marina costs of having a very beamy boat. If your wanting to be in a nice convenient safe spot expect to pay out the wazoo.

Cheerio

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

That's right, "F%^^* everyone else, it's all about me."

Even over a non necessity like a rec boat.

No wonder.

i have some shares of a stock that i will sell you. 50% discount to what i paid. Such a deal. PM me and send the check and they're yours. No matter that i paid too much for them, be a good guy and bail me out!

jon

[K100Fran]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

That's right, "F%^^* everyone else, it's all about me."

Even over a non necessity like a rec boat.

No wonder.

I don't interpret it his statement quite as harshly as you. It's economics, it's what the market will bear. There is nothing wrong with paying the least amount possible for a product. Money is a scarce resource for any and it is foolish to pay more than necessary. Markets are very capable of ssettling prices based on supply/demand. The seller does not have to accept an offer, they can wait for a better offer.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

That's right, "F%^^* everyone else, it's all about me."

Even over a non necessity like a rec boat.

No wonder.

So, someone buying a liability such as a sailboat that is guaranteed to lose money over time then wants to sell due to financial reasons, what ever that reason maybe, you are suggesting the buyer should subsidize the seller's poor financial choices by paying more than he/she needs to?

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[robert sailor]

Why all the talk about making a financial case for owning a sailboat. A complete waste of time in my opinion as cruising sailboats are a money sponge and you'll never make a financial case for ownership but I'll tell you what, it doesn't have much to do with money, it has everything to do with emotional feelings. Sailboats and cruising is the most fun I have ever had for the money. Who cares about financial cases, you don't try to make a financial case on taking beautiful women on dates, do you? It's similar and just about as much fun.

[n13L5]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

...you don't try to make a financial case on taking beautiful women on dates, do you? It's similar and just about as much fun.

Women are a much better financial proposition than boats: They will pick up the tab as often as not, while the ghost in the boat will never pay for anything.

Less moody than the weather and you'll have seven little children, that will take care of you when you're old, while your boat will just drown you

[Polux]

Originally Posted by n13L5

Women are a much better financial proposition than boats: They will pick up the tab as often as not, while the ghost in the boat will never pay for anything.

Less moody than the weather and you'll have seven little children, that will take care of you when you're old, while your boat will just drown you

I don't know about that. I remember very well a conversation with an older guy many years ago (probably he had the age I have now) that was saying how cheap it was to maintain is 50ft motorboat.

I was quite surprised and asked him what he meant. He said that for having the motor boat he had given away the "maintenance" of two lovers (house paid and everything). He said their were beautiful but the boat was beautiful too and was given him a lot less problems, the same fun and only costed a fraction.

So i guess it will depend of what you are talking about regarding women

[n13L5]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't know about that. I remember very well a conversation with an older guy many years ago (probably he had the age I have now) that was saying how cheap it was to maintain is 50ft motorboat.

I was quite surprised and asked him what he meant. He said that for having the motor boat he had given away the "maintenance" of two lovers (house paid and everything). He said their were beautiful but the boat was beautiful too and was given him a lot less problems, the same fun and only costed a fraction.

So i guess it will depend of what you are talking about regarding women

He should have stayed away from the charter market?


True, some complain of problems with Women, but who's fault that is hasn't been settled yet

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by daletournier

So, someone buying a liability such as a sailboat that is guaranteed to lose money over time then wants to sell due to financial reasons, what ever that reason maybe, you are suggesting the buyer should subsidize the seller's poor financial choices by paying more than he/she needs to?

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

What I am saying, is that someone who circles the used boat market like a vulture, hoping to find some family in dire straits that has to sell well below market value today, so they can avoid foreclosure on their home tomorrow, (for what ever reason beyond the boat owners control) is well, not the type of person I want to be.

Our first sailboat, we offered 40% of asking and settled on 50%, because that is what it was really worth. It had been stored in a barn for 5 years. The lower selling price hurt nobody. We probably could have gotten it for the 40% if we held firm, but went up to 50%, simply for good will. As a result, the owners were helpful, whereas they may not have been if we stuck to the 40%.

Our second boat, we offered 85% of asking because that is what it was worth. The owner came back at 90%, claiming to have another buyer in the wings. I was 80% sure it wasn't true. But the owner, in his mid 40's had just suffered a stroke, that paralysed his left side and seriously affected his speech. He suddenly couldn't work. I expected the family was in dire straits, beyond their control. (Kids can never control what their stupid parents do, even if the parents could.) We agreed on the 90%. In reality, I probably could have bought that boat at 50% or 60% of asking, but I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much, knowing I took advantage of that family.

I have purchased many boats since then, both personally and professionally.

I know I could have paid less for many of them, some a lot less, due to the dire financial situation of the owner.

But I try not to take advantage of those less fortunate.

Years ago, when I was fresh out of college, a business owner friend asked me what I wanted to be. "Rich" was my immediate answer.

He advised, "Oh it's easy to get rich, just screw a bunch of people out of their money. Are you sure that is what you really want to do?"

I'm not rich, far from it, and from that day, it was no longer my primary ambition to become rich.

That one conversation had a very profound effect on my life. My new answer to that same question became, "Respectful of the person I become."

Today, some things I have done in the past that I'm not proud of, haunt me regularly. I'm glad there aren't any more of them, like "the time I screwed that family over to get that sailboat cheap".

We all end up penniless in the end, feeding the worms; I choose not to be associated with them while still breathing.

I'm certainly no saint, but if one lives their life with a "Dog eat dog" mentality, well, they end up becoming a dog.

We are talking large rec boats here. If you have disposable money to purchase one, you are in the 1%. Do you really have to hurt the people less fortunate, over a boat?

"If I don't somebody else will", doesn't cut it for me. I don't aspire to be that person, that is oh so easy to become, using weak justification for intentionally hurting others.

[robert sailor]

I don't necessarily agree with you on buying items but I do think your view of what makes a good person is spot on and people like you always make the very best friends in life, good on ya!

[a64pilot]

May sound silly, but I bounce everything against, will I feel good about myself when I look in the mirror in the morning?

But now that I am more involved with "business" I can tell you that it is my opinion that the majority of "successful" business people would look at themselves in the mirror with pride, knowing they just sent someone to the poor house, cause they increased their profits.
From my perspective, there is a distinct lack of ethics in business in the US now, maybe always was, I don't know.

[Tayana42]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

May sound silly, but I bounce everything against, will I feel good about myself when I look in the mirror in the morning?

But now that I am more involved with "business" I can tell you that it is my opinion that the majority of "successful" business people would look at themselves in the mirror with pride, knowing they just sent someone to the poor house, cause they increased their profits.
From my perspective, there is a distinct lack of ethics in business in the US now, maybe always was, I don't know.

I remember some years ago when seminars on business management used to talk about doing what was best for all stakeholders...owners, stockholders, customers, employees and communities. You don't hear much of that kind of thinking today.