Collapsing brokerage market for Monohulls

[Boatguy30]

It was looking to me like asking prices around here were actually ticking up with the housing recovery. Not sure about selling prices.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

It was looking to me like asking prices around here were actually ticking up with the housing recovery. Not sure about selling prices.

If it's true it's probably because those who did not have to sell during the crisis (or could afford not to sell cheaply) decided to put their boats on the market as the economic situation has stabilized.

PS IMO the so-called recover is only in the eyes of the gov't statisticians and political hacks looking to raise taxes, etc. In reality most people's take home pay today is well below what they had left prior to the crisis. Especially if one includes the higher medical insurance,co-pay and not covered costs, food prices, taxes, cost of higher education, etc. A few % points here and there quickly add up to 10s of % of the family budget.

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Time will tell though if the average Cat ages as well as a well built mono.
I think due to the need for more lightweight construction, they won't, but that is just an opinion.
I think of course that a mono that uses the same construction techniques will not fare any better, it's construction techniques, not number of hulls

Unfortunately, very very few cats actually use lightweight construction, most of them are very heavy as they are built to compete on price for charter operators. It's more cheap construction, than lightweight.

Outremer 4x - 48', 18368 lbs (just a handful a year)
Leopard 48, 37480lbs (coming off the line like a chevy).

I'm also not sure these are the things that decrease a cats desirable life, cat design has changed a massive amount in the last 20 years. Take an 25 yr old Privilege 39, well built boat for it's day, not light, solid. Still a great boat, but known for occasional electrical gremlins, grazing windows, headliners failing, the usual stuff that you'd need to invest in for any 25 year old boat. Just the layout is not as desirable as the modern cats. $100-150K, great round the world boat @ 6-8 knots, and you get 2 engines to boot, what a deal.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

...
What seems to be lacking any liquidity is the center part of the mono business - boats say from 100k to say 500k. They seem not to trade even though many are priced fine. I think this implies either glut or else no money to spend in this client class (the middle class).

Cats priced in the same bracket seem to trade fine though.

This is the situation in S Europe / Med.
...
b.

Yes middle class paid for most for the crisis and that situation is more prevalent on Spain, Portugal and Italy were the market (new and used) really come down making for more offer and less demand bringing the used boats price down. But the worst of it has already gone and if a recuperation is yet very slight, things are now a bit better, following the economic recover of those countries.

On boat shows and on the new market that had as consequence more new bigger boats (50ft and over) and lesser smaller ones. The profits they made selling a single big luxury yacht is equivalent to what they would gain with many smaller boats...that they do not manage to sell anyway. But things are better now on the used market and the traditional market of cruisers between 33 and 50ft is slowly increasing.

[Boatguy30]

There is a short clip of the Salty Dawg rally boats in Portsmouth, VA. I was surprised to see the average size boat looks to be around 50' as this is a no cost/ low cost fun rally and would have expected may smaller boats.

I sold a 43' mono and the only serious parties I had interested were all Canadian. If you go down to Georgetown in January 1/2 the boats are Canadian. They simply have a stronger, more economically secure middle class.

[robert sailor]

Other than the long term Med/Mexico/Caribbean markets the limiting factor will be marinas. Eventually it won't be 1-1/2 times it will be 2 as marinas are not set up for Cats other than end ties. All good things come to an end and as more and more Cats are produced the resales values will drop. There could be some effect on the monos as well but maybe not as much as some people think.

[Pizzazz]

One of the key drivers on the West Coast is the relatively expensive housing in most coastal cities. The typical coastal cruiser has a house near the ocean and a boat in the marina. As housing becomes less and less affordable, the budget for discretionary sending on boats evaporates. It just becomes impractical to maintain the monthly expense for a bigger boat including financing, maintenance and slip fees. True that some people move aboard or go cruising but this is a tiny share of the market which is centered around coastal cruising.

I believe that if interest rates go up there may be some really good deals for cash buyers in the next couple of years.

[PHRF57]

What an interesting thread this is!
I'd like to add another element that I think will potentially have a significant impact.
The current populist tilt in American political discourse will make it inevitable that we will see higher levels of taxation on wealthier taxpayers, as well ( particularly if Hillary is elected) as changes in income tax regulations. A significant portion of the Charter Industry is being financed by the ability to write off charter boats, such that the tax advantage compensates the owner for the depreciation. So...would anyone like to speculate on what this will do to both the charter and the brokerage businesses when loopholes like the schedule 179 instant depreciation, as well as the overall depreciability of "hobby businesses", ends?

[Boat_Girl]

Hey there!

I'm a broker with Edwards Yacht Sales. This is a really intresting topic, and you are very right that there are suddenly a lot of cats on the market for reasonable prices. BUT here's the problem: they are harder to maintain (two engines!), harder to find dockage and haul-out facilities for (beam, anyone?), and many monohaul people like myself just don't like the way they feel. I think that multihull owners are going to hit all wall--all the ones that are coming into market are going to have no place to go...and ultimately the mono market will stabilize.

Boats are selling. There are so so so many good deals out there, but there is more supply than there is demand, so the prices have been driven down...I don't think it has to do with the influx of cats on the market...I just think it has to do with how much Classic (and not so classic) Plastic there is out there. The world doesn't really have room for new boats!

Where does fiberglass go to die? It doesn't! It lasts forever. So my best advice is to buy an old boat and give it some love. ❤️❤️❤️

[macrae]

I think a lot of good points have been posted here, but my personnel opinion is that catamarans are a fad, for those who want comfort over sailing capabilities. Catamarans don't sail worth a crap,they have less rocking from side to side, but rock just as much fore and aft. The other point that I have not seen here is "Boats are becoming Less expensive" Dockage and storage is not. Add up what it costs for a 42' catamaran in dockage and storage fees, two motors to maintain and tell me they are less expensive. I don't even consider catamarans "sail Boats" They look like drill rigs. How many people do you know that have a picture of their catamarn hanging over their fireplace? Nothing attractive about them.

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by macrae

I don't even consider catamarans "sail Boats" They look like drill rigs. How many people do you know that have a picture of their catamarn hanging over their fireplace? Nothing attractive about them.

We have a picture of our Catamaran hanging over the fireplace.

SAWEEEeeeeet looking drill rig as you call it.

Our 2 daughter would never go out on our Catalina 380, but want to be on our Helia 44 every chance they get.

[gjordan]

Unpredictability makes all markets shaky, boats, stocks, etc. We (the U.S.) vote in a week and maybe things will settle down a bit. After almost 2 years of campaigning that has been mostly fear mongering (on both sides) we may be happy or unhappy, but will have a better idea of what the future will bring. Lets just hope it works out OK. Grant.

[Shrew]

@Cotemar

I saw the new rig a few times down in the anchorage at the bottom of the river along with your mooring up the river. We're just a little further up-river from you.

Beautiful new boat.

[TheThunderbird]

Many asking prices are really out of mind. True, the selling price will be a 15 to 30% lower.

There was a glut of cheap, sub-standard monos in the 90s till the hype of 2006, which will soon collapse in value, as far as they lose their primary owner.

I do believe there can be room for well built monos from the 80s onwards, however keeping in mind that a modern 45' is as spacious as a IOR-tuned 54'.

I have just two crampy two- berth cabins for guests, and even my own cabin's beds are barely acceptable by modern standards.....

This, imo, makes any old mono from the 80s affordable within the 100/200k eur, whatever the size (<65').
As i mind more about a sturdy seaworthiness, I'm fine and better off

[Brooderman]

I think we're still in that stage where the sellers think they have value in their boats, buyers think they don't and the difference in opinion is the cause of few sales.

Only the brokers and surveyors and other people "in the business" get access to the databases of sold prices (as opposed to asking prices). And I don't think they as a group are saying too much about prices and where they are heading.

The fact that the mid range market isn't selling will at some point change - those boats will start to sell for cheaper and cheaper - putting a downward pressure on the lower price ranges as those boats will soon appear to be overpriced.

And then the low end will collapse as well. People "in the business" won't like that as they have to do the same work as before for a fraction of the paycheck effectively taking a pay cut as well. That's why the sales data isn't public like it is on houses. If you're a buyer - you should save this thread - print it out - it just may bring a dose of reality to the next seller you talk to - or broker. You may not be telling them anything new but they'll know you know and that could translate into substantial savings, or at least justification for your 50% low offer. I used to think 10% low would be insulting to a seller, now I either don't care or expect that the seller already knows.

And at the very bottom of the market, what happens to the 40' boat that is for sale for $35K that needs a 20K refit. How far from being not worth the effort is it?

I also wonder if Hurricane Matthew helped the resale market or not. Certainly a lot of boats are going to be junked, reducing supply, and some are going to be repaired - making a newly "refit" boat a possible Matthew casualty and therefore suspect as well. Sigh ... then I take that thought a little further and every 30 year old boat has a possibility of being a hurricane wreck that was refit.

Any way you look at it, there is opportunity out there.