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Old 26-12-2009, 02:40   #1
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Code Zero ?

We are considering adding a code zero to our inventory of sails and had a few questions about the feasability of a coze zero and our rig.

Bluewater is a rugged, stout bluewater cruiser. However, her mast head has only spinnaker bails - no dedicated spinnaker halyard with the associated mast head sheeve. From what I have read I inferre that the high load put on the rig by a code zero (as compared to a asymmetrical cruising chute) means that it should not be flown from the bail.

How are you flying a code zero?

I have read the Good Old Boat article from July/August 2009 by Carl Hunt but he flies his Code Zero inside the foretriangle.

I would love to hear what people are doing with their code zero.

Thanks!
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Old 26-12-2009, 03:10   #2
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The short answer is that for you using the spinnaker bails is ok.

If you want to be able to sail as close as possible with the zero, then the best bet is to use a 2:1 halyard - dead end the halyard on one bail, take it down to a block on the head of the zero and then back up to a block on the second bail and then down to the mast/deck winch. That does two nice things: (1) gives you more luff tension which is important if you want to sail high with the zero, and (2) spreads the halyard load between the two bails.

We have rigged our zero this way for a decade and its been perfect.

If you don't really want to sail close with the zero (say to 50 degrees apparent) then you could easily use less halyard tension and use only one bail.

There is a longer answer, related to the fact that racers and (many) sail makers think about and use zeros in a different way than cruisers, but for your boat it probably ends up with the same answer - you can use your bails if they properly/strongly built.
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Old 26-12-2009, 20:19   #3
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Well, I sort of disagree. What the cruisers use is not a Code 0 then.

I can't quite see how an average cruising boat could use a Code 0, either. But it could be used on a high-end cruising boat perhaps. Something like a J-boat, First, Atlantic, Futuna, Shipman.

I believe a cruising boat can use a "heavy" nylon/light Dacron genoa, similar in shape to a Code 0.

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Old 27-12-2009, 01:56   #4
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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Well, I sort of disagree. What the cruisers use is not a Code 0 then.

I can't quite see how an average cruising boat could use a Code 0, either. But it could be used on a high-end cruising boat perhaps. Something like a J-boat, First, Atlantic, Futuna, Shipman.

I believe a cruising boat can use a "heavy" nylon/light Dacron genoa, similar in shape to a Code 0.

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Hmmm. . . . not sure what point you are trying to make.

1. However we define a zero, it can probably be hung from the OP's spin bails, and that was his question.

2. Not sure why you think 'an average cruising boat' (whatever that is !?) could not use a zero. Pretty much any cruising boat that can fly a chute could fly one - even using the 'strictest' definition of a zero (eg "The Code Zero is the smallest asymmetrical spinnaker allowed by the IMS rule. It's has an elliptical profile and generates most of it power in the upper half of the sail. Thus the foot of the sail is actually quite a bit smaller than a spinnaker. The chord depth of the sail is also quite a bit shallower than a spinnaker. This is a specialty sail built out of high modulus materials for light air cracked off to close reaching. 46-80 AWA, 0-14 AWS" - definition courtesy of doyle).

Cruising boats tend not to be too concerned about IMS sail measurement/requirements so cruising zeros tend to be cut a little different and used over a much wider range of wind angles and lower upwind wind speeds. But you are still looking at a sail that is cut/shaped differently than a genoa.

To graphically show the difference - white is a genoa, red is a codo zero, and blue is an asymetrical chute:

3. Pretty much every definition I am aware of a zero uses low stretch fabric, and not you 'heavy nylon'. Upwind a nylon sail would stretch and be pretty useless except in pure drifter conditions.
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Old 27-12-2009, 09:38   #5
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Yes, off course, we can also use outboards in our cruising boats, the racing power boats use them. Somehow, most cruising boats will go with an inboard. Why?

;-)))

When I say 'can' and 'can't' I do not mean this type of sail will not physically fit the cruising boat.

I mean it will not work - it will not work the way it does on a racing boat. One reason it will not is that the hull of the typical cruising boat will not be responsive to the point where the sail will work to its design point. Another reason is that a typical cruising sailor will not have the skill to trim the sail properly and then sail the boat in the grove.

What I say does not apply to cruising sailors with strong racing pedigree. But this group of people will most often, even in the cruising mod, not sail a typical cruising boat.

Your comment on Nylon properties is 100% correct. Please note I said 'A Nylon sail similar in shape to Code 0'.

A light Dacron is better for this purpose, that is why I mentioned it. But it is not quite so easy to store a huge light Dacron sail. So it may make sense to go for a "heavier" Nylon and fly the sail in light conditions (for which it is designed) and benefit from the fact that it can be tucked into any sailbag in five minutes when not in use.

A well designed Nylon sail with the cloth weight matched to the application will stretch less and the stretch will be allowed for in the design process by any good sailmaker. Still, I would go for a light Dacron, if a furler can be had (but watch that price tag before you pass over the plastic!).

Hope this explains a bit.
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Old 27-12-2009, 12:07   #6
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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post

One reason it will not is that the hull of the typical cruising boat will not be responsive to the point where the sail will work to its design point. Another reason is that a typical cruising sailor will not have the skill to trim the sail properly and then sail the boat in the grove.
Hmmm (again) . . . I am not a racing sailor or particularly skilled at sail trim, but we have gotten a lot of use from a zero sail.

It allows us to carry a smaller (105) jib on our furler, and then in light winds (essentially when there are no white caps) we can fly the zero and get a lot of extra power. It means a lot less motoring for us.

I don't see that hull resposniveness has much to do with it. In fact I think you could argue that a heavier/less responsive hull might get more benefit from the extra power.

But we are getting quite far off the OP's question, which was how to rig one.
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Old 27-12-2009, 13:09   #7
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It allows us to carry a smaller (105) jib on our furler, and then in light winds (essentially when there are no white caps) we can fly the zero and get a lot of extra power. It means a lot less motoring for us.

I don't see that hull resposniveness has much to do with it. In fact I think you could argue that a heavier/less responsive hull might get more benefit from the extra power.
We differ in what we call a Code 0 sail. While you see it more in the shape, I see it more on what the sail does. Sort of like comparing form with function. We do seem to agree on the design though.

Within the limitations of my definition, hull responsiveness is essential as under a Code 0 the boat will be sailed by apparent wind and changes to course have to be done often and in time to follow the app. wind's shifts. Otherwise the momentum is lost and, Code 0 or square rig, the boat will stop. And it takes a long time to get her going again. So this is why I see a place for a Code 0 on a racing boat or at least a responsive hull with a racing-conscious cruiser at the helm. A typical cruiser will press the Auto button and the Code 0 will be just a 10k flashy piece of canvas hanging down in disgrace.

Even if we are a bit off the main thread then sometimes the distractions can be as enjoyable as the paved roads.

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Old 27-12-2009, 14:19   #8
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Even if we are a bit off the main thread then sometimes the distractions can be as enjoyable as the paved roads.

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Agreed wholeheartedly !...and I for one am thankful you both have shed some light into my ignorance of what a Code zero really is and its uses...I thank you both for that...Please continue if there is more to learn!
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Old 27-12-2009, 14:45   #9
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Agreed wholeheartedly !...and I for one am thankful you both have shed some light into my ignorance of what a Code zero really is and its uses...I thank you both for that...Please continue if there is more to learn!
To continue the "distractions" and to add some light on my own ignorance,- help me out. I thought the Code Zero was a "rule beater" used my racers so they could use a sail that measured out as a spinaker, but could be used like a large genoa without the penalty. So, why wouldn't a cruiser just fly the large genoa for windward performance? I'm probably missing something here. 'a little help, Aythya crew
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Old 27-12-2009, 16:54   #10
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CaptForce:

This is so indeed. Once the Code 0 thing got hold there was a lot of development (computer modelling, cloth technology, e.g.) that took the sail to the levels where the large genoa had never been. But only on hulls that were developed along with the sail's (and sailor's) 'revolution'.

Usability-wise a Code 0 is a large genoa, not a spinnaker, nor genaker. My understanding is that by using a well designed and modern genoa (that incorporates some of the achievements of the Code 0 boom) the cruiser gets a cruising equivalent of what the racer gets from a Code 0. For much less money ;-)

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Old 27-12-2009, 17:57   #11
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Thanks Barnakiel, I know, as a cruiser, I reap many benefits from the racing community, but like many cruisers, I'm often unaware of their evolution.
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Old 27-12-2009, 18:02   #12
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I would like to ask Evan: Where do you tack the Code Zero? I know the hot tack right now is to get a small bowsprit and leave it rolled up on a continious line furler. See colligomarine.com photo below. You can always drop it if need be, or leave it rolled up and out of the way. I am asking because this is what I am considering doing my self....... How do you set yours up?
Also do you consider it a pretty light air sail? How much apparent wind will you carry it in an ideal world?
And last, (for any doubters out there) What % do you use it for the real world cruising you have done. Say on a typical (is there such a thing?) trade wind passage. Do you find you use it a lot, over a genny or a nylon drifter? I'm wonderin' is it the cat's meow!
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Old 27-12-2009, 18:15   #13
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Thanks Barnakiel, I know, as a cruiser, I reap many benefits from the racing community, but like many cruisers, I'm often unaware of their evolution.

CaptForce, that has always been the way it is, it trickles down from the expensive throwaway race crowd. Or so it seems......

That is why it has been so fun to show this to people. (Link Below) It is a great combination of the old (dead-eyes) blending with the new (super strong ropes).....one of the best parts is, it came from the industrial world of commercial fishing.
The ropes are Icelandic. I have no more steel wire on my boat anywhere. Took 40 lbs. off my little rig, and improved the motion a whole lot. All this talk of Code Zero's is just what I want to learn and implement. I have heard the Dynex Dux works real well as a torque rope. Just wind the Code Zero right around it.

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Old 28-12-2009, 01:09   #14
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Where do you tack the Code Zero?

Our boat has a very short spirit cum anchor platform, which happens to extend in front of the pulpit just exactly far enough for a single line furler to set. I have attached a picture (unfortunately not with the furler set) but you can see the attachment point just forward of the anchor and the halyard set to it.

Also do you consider it a pretty light air sail? How much apparent wind will you carry it in an ideal world?

Yes, we consider it a light air sail, like with our spinnaker we have a 'no white caps' rule. Generally we will only run it in 13 true or apparent (whichever is higher). We have flown the zero up to 18kts apparent a few times, but only when we got caught by a squall or sudden headland acceleration zone and were not paying close enough attention. One of the nice things about the zero furling is that it is much easier to handle in this sort of situation than a chute - you just furl it up.


And last, (for any doubters out there) What % do you use it for the real world cruising you have done. Say on a typical (is there such a thing?) trade wind passage.

Well we can fly the zero from about 4kts to about 13kts, and 30% of our time offshore the wind is 10kts apparent or less. So, lets say we use it 20% of the time. Beth could give you a more accurate figure from her logs but 20% is probably good enough for discussion purposes.
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as under a Code 0 the boat will be sailed by apparent wind and changes to course have to be done often and in time to follow the app. wind's shifts. Otherwise the momentum is lost and, Code 0 or square rig, the boat will stop.

Barnakiel, I have to ask if you have ever sailed with a zero?? Because the stability of the sail is exactly one of the reasons it is so brilliant and better than a conventional a-chute. An a-chute will collapse as the wind shifts forward and around, but a zero will not for two reasons (1) it has a tight rope luff so the luff CANNOT collapse, and (2) it is flatter cut so it can still fly when the wind shifts much further forward (an a-chute will collapse about 60 apparent and the zero will still set at 40 apparent). We have stopped using an a-chute when the apparent is forward of the beam and now pretty much only use the zero exactly because it is so much more stable when the wind is shifting around. And we pretty much never hand steer. The autopilot is on pretty much most of the time.
The zero (if it is actually a zero cut) will be more powerful than a light genoa (both in size and shape).

There are all sorts of light air sail options available - from light #1's to nylon drifters, to a-chutes to zeros. All have their pros and cons.
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Old 28-12-2009, 01:30   #15
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Cool Good post...I'm rekindling my excitement for one again.
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