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Old 28-12-2009, 12:17   #16
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Thanks Evan, your experience sounds very similar to the "dock talk" I have picked up on the Code Zero sails. Keeping my boat moving in light air is one of my most favored times to be sailing. Often times I am keeping pace with the over burdened cruising boats that are motoring.
Like Dick Newick says they suffer from "all the modern inconveniences"
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Old 28-12-2009, 12:33   #17
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Originally Posted by Jmolan View Post
Keeping my boat moving in light air is one of my most favored times to be sailing. Often times I am keeping pace with the over burdened cruising boats that are motoring.
Like Dick Newick says they suffer from "all the modern inconveniences"
Yes, I love sailing in 4 or 5kts of wind and flat water. But the flat water part is something you don't get all that often offshore.

I have not recently seen anything good written comparing the various light air sail alternatives. There is a pretty straight progression from a light #1 genoa to a zero to an a-chute, getting less close winded and more powerful at each step. The drifter is really for when you have so little wind you don't know what direction it is from.

One of the biggest developments from the zeros is the evolution/refinement of the single line rope luff furling systems. They can and are now used for the whole range of sails from storm jibs to A2's. So once you have a zero and have invested in the single line furler it starts to make sense to rethink the your whole headsail handling system/inventory.
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Old 28-12-2009, 15:04   #18
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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
They can and are now used for the whole range of sails from storm jibs to A2's. So once you have a zero and have invested in the single line furler it starts to make sense to rethink the your whole headsail handling system/inventory.
Evans

I am glad you brought this up as it relates to the second part of my question. If looking at a 2:1 halyard on a Code Zero, how high tech of a line should I be using. I am using Samson XLS Extra (0.8% at 20%) on my other halyards and was wondering if this will be good enough for the Code Zero, or will I need to go up one level. The boat is a Pearson 424 Ketch, so the stick is relatively short.

I am also looking into using the single line furler for my storm sail, instead of a solent stay. If I did this, would it change the above answer.

Thanks,

Paul
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Old 28-12-2009, 15:45   #19
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Paul, have you sewn in your luff rope yet? I know Colligo has a new over-braided Dynex Dux. The weave is wound on very tight, and makes an excellent torque rope for the sails you will be using with the furler.
I am also re-thinking my whole headsail/deck arrangement. Being able to move around the furling drum, and change sails on it so easily, sure opens up the possibilities. I have a cutter, and I am thinking 2 or 3 furler's now!
Oh by the way check out Colligo price on the torque rope, then look up Yale's price....:-)

Paul, the mono in the photo is our friends Peterson 42? I think. Mid Cockpit, we sailed with them a lot on the Sea of Cortez. The other shots show how versatile a Cont. Line furler can be on a multihull. This is our Stbd. bow and allowed us to keep the drifter in clean air all day....:-)
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Old 28-12-2009, 16:03   #20
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I'm not convinced a R 0 is worth it for the short masted cruiser. Chances are you are already sailing with a fairly large overlap so you will only gain depth (power). Maybe try sagging off the rig and move your leads forward and outboard to gain depth. For a higher aspect rig with non overlapping jibs it makes more sense but again you can sag off the rig and power up.

For a cruiser: maybe go with an R 1 for the ligher stuff forward of the beam and an R4 for the deeper work. Chances are you won't be flying free sails when the breeze is on, white sails are fine then.
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Old 28-12-2009, 16:14   #21
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Joli...can you expand on the R designation your giving? Thanks

FWIW...This sail talk is very exciting to me and something I really want to get a Handel on...if anyone felt like putting a list or a catalog together listing all the sail designation terms and what they stand for and their purpose I would be eternally grateful....past google searches have helped little...I still don't know what the heck a reacher is after hours of searching.

I'm sure it would become a "sticky" and a wealth of information to more then just myself...your reward will surpass your effort I'm sure of that.

FWIW..Joli, I miss seeing your avatar
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Old 28-12-2009, 16:36   #22
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Rain, here are a couple kite charts you can read through for a primer:

North Sails: Symmetricals & Asymmetricals

Racing Asymmetrical Spinnakers

Don't get me wrong the 0 is a great sail for power reaching but the range is narrow enough that I'm not sure it makes sense for the average cruiser. I think light sails for deeper angles fill the bill better.

I'll work on a new avatar, not sure where the old one went.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillraining View Post
Joli...can you expand on the R designation your giving? Thanks

FWIW...This sail talk is very exciting to me and something I really want to get a Handel on...if anyone felt like putting a list or a catalog together listing all the sail designation terms and what they stand for and their purpose I would be eternally grateful....past google searches have helped little...I still don't know what the heck a reacher is after hours of searching.

I'm sure it would become a "sticky" and a wealth of information to more then just myself...your reward will surpass your effort I'm sure of that.

FWIW..Joli, I miss seeing your avatar
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Old 29-12-2009, 00:39   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Lefebvre View Post
Evans

If looking at a 2:1 halyard on a Code Zero, how high tech of a line should I be using. I am using Samson XLS Extra (0.8% at 20%) on my other halyards and was wondering if this will be good enough for the Code Zero, or will I need to go up one level. The boat is a Pearson 424 Ketch, so the stick is relatively short.

I am also looking into using the single line furler for my storm sail, instead of a solent stay. If I did this, would it change the above answer.
I am not a rigging 'expert' and have only worked my way to a good solution on Hawk thru 10 years of trial and error. But . . .

For the zero, it's a question of how much pointing ability you want. With a 2:1 halyard you might have 50' of halyard tensioned when the sail is set. 50' x .8% = 5" stretch, if you really load the 2:1 halyard to 20%, which is probably unlikely on a cruising boat. So, we are probably talking about a couple inches of stretch. This is not a complete killer but I think is enough that you will loose some amount of pointing ability. I would say you were in the grey area here and could go either way.

For the storm jib, you do want to be able to go upwind so you need to be able to keep the luff tight and streight. I would not compromise here and would get a spectra halyard. Just remember when you go to a spectra halyard you have taken the stretch out of the whole system and all the hardware (clutches and 2:1 blocks) are going to take greater shock loading.
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Old 29-12-2009, 01:02   #24
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I'm not convinced a R 0 is worth it for the short masted cruiser. Chances are you are already sailing with a fairly large overlap so you will only gain depth (power).

For a cruiser: maybe go with an R 1 for the ligher stuff forward of the beam and an R4 for the deeper work. Chances are you won't be flying free sails when the breeze is on, white sails are fine then.
Well there is of course a question what sort of jib you have set on the roller furler. If you have a #1 there, then you are certaintly right that the zero will only provide a marginal increment. But with a zero you could switch the roller furler down to say a 110, using the zero in the light stuff and the 110 in the stronger stuff and having better sailing all along. You of course need to consider the entire headsail inventory and orgainize them to have as few gaps and overlaps in coverage (wind speed and angle) as possible.

For our own boat, where we have a fractional rig with a 105 on the RF . . . from a pure sail power and boat speed perspective I agree with you. But from a convenience and easy of handling perspective the zero is just so easy to use and so flexible (any wind angle and any wind strength) it usually gets the call unless we are out just for an afternoon day sail.

When we are tired offshore and just know the wind is going to change/shift in a few hours we almost always hoist the zero rather than an a-chutes because (1) it gives us enough power to keep moving, perhaps not the last .1kt that the absolutely correct a-chute would, but more than enough power/boat speed for a cruiser; (2) it is so easy and will deal with whatever wind shifts and squalls might come along without causing any fire drills.

We are a little unusual in carring several light air sails. Most cruising boats only carry one light air sail. We just know so many who carry an A2 (light runner) sort of chute and pretty much never use it because its too much work and stress and they 'need to motor anyway'. On a cruising boat with space constraints it makes no sense to carry a sail you don't use much. Our sense is that the zeros get used a lot more.
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Old 29-12-2009, 01:14   #25
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if anyone felt like putting a list or a catalog together listing all the sail designation terms and what they stand for and their purpose ...I still don't know what the heck a reacher is after hours of searching.
That could start a lot of internet fistfights Over on Sailing Anarchy there was quite a heated discussion about whether Hawk's largest staysail should be called just a "staysail", or a "staysail genoa" or a "genoa staysail".

Joli has given you some links to the downwind number codes. These are used by the racers and each loft brand has its own particular definition. North's are in the most common usage. The smaller numbers are for lighter air, which makes sense; but also the odd numbers are for closer wind angles, except for the zero which is for the closest angle, than even numbers!

A reacher is simply a headsail shaped to be optimized when you are cracked off the wind and sailing on a reach. It will usually have a higher clew and more draft (depth) than an upwind sail. You can have different reachers for all sorts of wind strengths from very light (drifter) to very strong ("blast reacher").
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Old 29-12-2009, 05:41   #26
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You guys are certainly not the typical cruiser and your boat is a reflection of that. Your boat has a high aspect rig with non overlapping jibs, the zero works to fill that gap 50 to 90 awa probably too ~14. Curious is it masthead or frac?

As mentioned, the typical cruisers rig is much shorter with jibs having a good bit of overlap maybe as much as 150% that is why I have to wonder about the value of the code 0 (a free flying reacher) for those rig configurations. Want to know why the Ben/Cat/Jean have short rigs with big overlapping genoas? Because most folks sailing them don't know or care enough to reposition the lead for different sailing angles, wind speeds, or when roller reefed. Funny story, when talking with the Hanse importer at the Annapolis Boat Show he was extolling the self tacking jib. The deck was clear of any track for other trim positions, when I asked him how he trimmed when they cracked he did not have an answer. Maybe they never reach, only sail upwind?

Stillraining, a reacher is high cut which leads aft, often it carries a genoa staysail inside to re-attach flow to the main. Why a reacher? It allow you to push SA up with max lp, it is easer to trim because as you ease the leach does not open as quickly or dramatically and there is room to fly inner canvas.

Crack a high aspect jib and you MUST reposition leads or listen to the leach beat itself to death (ask Estarzinger). Crack the zero and the lead may or may not require repositioning, (ie. less work).

Sometimes a zero will make sense if the rig can take advantage of it, sometimes it doesn't. Look at your current sailplan and decide if the free flying genoa makes sense.

Maybe no?



Maybe yes?





Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Well there is of course a question what sort of jib you have set on the roller furler. If you have a #1 there, then you are certaintly right that the zero will only provide a marginal increment. But with a zero you could switch the roller furler down to say a 110, using the zero in the light stuff and the 110 in the stronger stuff and having better sailing all along. You of course need to consider the entire headsail inventory and orgainize them to have as few gaps and overlaps in coverage (wind speed and angle) as possible.

For our own boat, where we have a fractional rig with a 105 on the RF . . . from a pure sail power and boat speed perspective I agree with you. But from a convenience and easy of handling perspective the zero is just so easy to use and so flexible (any wind angle and any wind strength) it usually gets the call unless we are out just for an afternoon day sail.

When we are tired offshore and just know the wind is going to change/shift in a few hours we almost always hoist the zero rather than an a-chutes because (1) it gives us enough power to keep moving, perhaps not the last .1kt that the absolutely correct a-chute would, but more than enough power/boat speed for a cruiser; (2) it is so easy and will deal with whatever wind shifts and squalls might come along without causing any fire drills.

We are a little unusual in carring several light air sails. Most cruising boats only carry one light air sail. We just know so many who carry an A2 (light runner) sort of chute and pretty much never use it because its too much work and stress and they 'need to motor anyway'. On a cruising boat with space constraints it makes no sense to carry a sail you don't use much. Our sense is that the zeros get used a lot more.
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Old 29-12-2009, 06:51   #27
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[QUOTE=Joli;380337] Curious is it masthead or frac?

Masthead

As mentioned, the typical cruisers rig is much shorter with jibs having a good bit of overlap maybe as much as 150%

Many cruisers we know start off with a big overlapping (130+) jib because that's what works well for coastal day sailing (when you pick 'nice' days to go sailing), then after a passage or two they realize that a smaller overlap is better offshore, but they then have a big hole in the sail plan for light air and have to motor more - and the zero more than fills that hole (better than the big jib did).

But I am not trying to sell zero's, they are not for everyone - surely not the racers converted to cruising who would probably prefer a couple chutes and not for the motor sailing crowd.

Crack a high aspect jib and you MUST reposition leads or listen to the leach beat itself to death (ask Estarzinger). Crack the zero and the lead may or may not require repositioning, (ie. less work).

Yes, for our 105 we have an upwind sheet lead on an inside track and then a reaching sheet lead forward out of the toerail and we usually have sheets lead thru both leads so we can easily switch back and forth. Moving the lead makes a noticable difference to boat speed.

Our zero lead does not need to be moved at different deep reaching angles, but does need to be moved as we come into a very close reach (55 degrees or tighter).
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Old 29-12-2009, 07:00   #28
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I agree with Evans. I seems much easier to have the smaller headsail for cruising and have the ability to carry it longer in heavier winds then to keep the big genoa that usually comes with boats. I like the concept of having a sail for lighter airs when putting it up and dealing with it is easier and safer then to have to change out the big genoa to a smaller sail in heavier winds when things are usually more hectic.

I always used a cruising spinnaker in that capacity but find the code 0 on a furler something that I really want to explore this time out.

Jim
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Old 29-12-2009, 07:19   #29
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Same here, twin sheets, one for an inboard upwind position the second outboard and forward. The upwind sheet on the primary winch and the reaching sheet on the foreguy winch. We play them both.

Reaching we tend to sag off and power up in the range that a zero would work and since we are quick we keep the apparant up in the lighter stuff. 10 tws easily yields 10 bs so although twa is ~95 but awa is 45~50. If we get much deeper the aws falls away quickly and then it's time for the assy. In a breeze white sails are fine and really sailing short handed we try to keep the assy (3500 sq ft) of the rig in anything over 22 tws or so.

I think you have a very good handle on your sail progression. Many cruisers could go to school on everything you've written and published. Thank you for taking the time to make it available to all of us!

[QUOTE=estarzinger;380363]
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Crack a high aspect jib and you MUST reposition leads or listen to the leach beat itself to death (ask Estarzinger). Crack the zero and the lead may or may not require repositioning, (ie. less work).

Yes, for our 105 we have an upwind sheet lead on an inside track and then a reaching sheet lead forward out of the toerail and we usually have sheets lead thru both leads so we can easily switch back and forth. Moving the lead makes a noticable difference to boat speed.

Our zero lead does not need to be moved at different deep reaching angles, but does need to be moved as we come into a very close reach (55 degrees or tighter).
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Old 30-12-2009, 05:54   #30
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Hawk is a bit unusual, but do remember we previously sailed round on Silk, a very traditional (short mast) Shannon ketch. So we do have a few miles on that sort of boat, and Silk at least would have liked a zero, but they had not really been developed then and we used a flattish cruising chute instead.
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