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Old 03-12-2015, 16:42   #46
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post

Reefs, like beaches, are transient phenomena,
Just another data point to support your statement:

"Although coral reefs have been around for over 500 million years, the Great Barrier Reef is relatively young at 500,000 years, and this most modern form is only 8,000 years old, having developed after the last ice age."
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Old 03-12-2015, 16:43   #47
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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Posting in CapsLock (= yelling) doesn't make it true ...



There already are serious replies, and Ciguatera is real (global warming or not). Google is your friend, as are the locals once you're there.
Not necessarily, and often the locals have completely incorrect ideas about what is "safe" or not. In many cases this is because they have no choice but to eat reef fish for subsistence. You do. Don't do it.
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Old 03-12-2015, 16:49   #48
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Just another data point to support your statement:

"Although coral reefs have been around for over 500 million years, the Great Barrier Reef is relatively young at 500,000 years, and this most modern form is only 8,000 years old, having developed after the last ice age."
Hi Stu,

I have personally extensively dived a reef in the Banda Spice Islands of Indonesia which is more than 4 meters deep in extraordinarily healthy coral, growing directly on top of a lava flow dating from 1988! You can see the lava above the water, still with almost no vegetation and jet black, and the coral below, right from the waters edge, both florid and IMMENSE.

However, this particular reef has been extensively studied precisely because it is so unusual. It can happen thus… but equally I have dived many reefs which are completely or nearly completely dead, that I had dived 25 or so years previously and which were full of florid life. No recovery on those ( a specific example is the predominantly staghorn reef to the East of Green Island anchorage in Antigua, diving that is a salutory lesson ).
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Old 03-12-2015, 16:57   #49
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
...


Reefs, like beaches, are transient phenomena, and people who say "WE MUST SAVE THEM!" may have an aesthetic point, but they are destroying our natural and ever-changing climate and geography when they do so.


For most of our planet's history, the oceans flowed between North and South America. Well, that is, after Gaea split apart and those two young continents formed, before Central America got in the way and ruined ocean currents and weather flow.


And before the entrance to the Mediterranean was overrun by the rising sea levels, there was no Med Sea or interior coastline. All these incredibly permanent and important things...are just transient phenomena. Like the subtropical forests that were in what is now Antarctica.


Don't worry, be happy, there's not a damned thing you really can do to change what the planet is going about, anyway.
You are playing fast and loose with geological history, equivocating between immense and shorter timescales in an entirely illegitimate manner for what appears to be a political agenda. Your idea that we are "destroying our natural and ever changing climate and geography" by attempting reef conservation is one of the most absurd statements I have ever read, pretty much anywhere.
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Old 03-12-2015, 17:03   #50
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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Actually any salt water fish can harbor the disease. There are even worse things out there. Ever been bit by a moray eel? If your hanging around reefs, there are all sorts of poisonous things that can kill you. Not something to fret about, but be aware of. Now about that puffer fish dinner.
Your information is way off. Ciguatoxin is not harboured by pelagics which do not eat reef fish. And you equivocate between various toxic hazards (bite delivered vs. ingested) why? Your "not something to fret about" is just ridiculous. I assume you drive without a seatbelt…
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Old 03-12-2015, 17:11   #51
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

I've known many people that have gotten Ciguatera and many more without it and all of us eat in the same habit. I've noticed that those that got sick were the ones that went to the doctor for every thing under the sun, even the common cold and taken antibiotics. the rest of us went to Grandma. I haven't been sick in over thirty years with the exception of traumatic injury I have had no need to see a doctor. Most of my medicine cabinet is in the spice rack in the galley. It's amazing what Garlic on a cut does verses triple antibiotic salve. Cayenne pepper and cocoa nut oil, to bengay? HuH! Rosemary and Turmeric tea, instead of advil? And the side effects are all plus's. no need to take the "purple pill" to handle the acid reflux caused by the other pills. Hell, Cayenne pepper even cures stomach ulcers. And it all strengthens the immune system.

I feel sorry for most of my generation and the generations that follow, as their immune systems weren't able to develop due to the vicious cycle of the AMA and the pharmaceutical corporations. Hypocrites, Culpepper and many others knew what they were talking about. Of course they didn't get rich. But getting rich is what brought on Global warming!
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Old 03-12-2015, 17:16   #52
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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I've known many people that have gotten Ciguatera and many more without it and all of us eat in the same habit. I've noticed that those that got sick were the ones that went to the doctor for every thing under the sun, even the common cold and taken antibiotics. the rest of us went to Grandma. I haven't been sick in over thirty years with the exception of traumatic injury I have had no need to see a doctor. Most of my medicine cabinet is in the spice rack in the galley. It's amazing what Garlic on a cut does verses triple antibiotic salve. Cayenne pepper and cocoa nut oil, to bengay? HuH! Rosemary and Turmeric tea, instead of advil? And the side effects are all plus's. no need to take the "purple pill" to handle the acid reflux caused by the other pills. Hell, Cayenne pepper even cures stomach ulcers. And it all strengthens the immune system.

I feel sorry for most of my generation and the generations that follow, as their immune systems weren't able to develop due to the vicious cycle of the AMA and the pharmaceutical corporations. Hypocrites, Culpepper and many others knew what they were talking about. Of course they didn't get rich. But getting rich is what brought on Global warming!
Well… I see that you appear to be a naturopath or similar. However your reliance on a "strong immune system" is unfortunately entirely misguided here.

Ciguatoxin is not a living pathogen or an infection. It is removed from the system by the excretory systems of the liver and kidneys and this results in both liver and kidney damage. Further, there is strong evidence that there is an immune involvement, but most likely quite opposite to your assumption: in some people prolonged exposure may cause an immune reaction, which adds to the problem. Sometimes the immune system's strength is not a good thing. It can kill us as well as cure us, and an overly aggressive immune response has killed many millions of people, even in infective epidemics, such as the 1918 flu.

However (though I am definitely NOT a lover of "natureopathy") I am with you on the overmedication of people in the west, and most specifically of people in the USA.
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Old 03-12-2015, 17:52   #53
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

as from one that has the toxin, we ate only small fish up to 3 kg, all reef fish. the one that put us over the edge was a Blue spotted grouper around the 5 kg mark, major symptoms started about two days after the large fish and varied differently among my family. minor symptoms over a two year period was headaches and fatigue, joint pains, could not drink any alcohol without blinding headaches, rashes and the reversal of hot and cold sensation . now after 3 years minor symptoms return after eating only small amounts of seafood, but can now have a beer or two!!
So anyone travelling the pacific route ,please take care, keep to eating small tuna around the 2-3 kg mark or only small amounts of reef fish
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Old 03-12-2015, 18:01   #54
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

The 1918 flu is a good point, if you are looking through a microscope. What I mentioned above is just a small part of health. What you consume, how physically fit you are, how much mental stress you put on yourself, the environment you live in, How you treat that environment, I could write pages and still not touch it all. In short learning to live "with " the planet, instead of trying to change it us is the answer. after all we Are "part" of this universe. We don't just live in it. Look at the pollution, hygiene and food quality they had in 1918, still in the beginning of the industrial age. That's why that flu was able to flourish. Altho Mother nature might have been trying to thin out the cancer on the face of the earth...ie...man ;-)

I know I shouldn't have stepped in here as I believe the society of man has tipped the scales beyond his ability to correct the damage we've caused and evolution will move on. So there is nothing we can do, with the exception of trying to adapt to the changes. Hopefully some other spices won't be looking back on us the way we look back on other extinct beings. Extinction is the result of the inability to adapt.
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Old 03-12-2015, 18:52   #55
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

These are the fish that caused most of my problems, caught in Fiji, Vanuatu.
Blue spotted grouper and all red colour reef fish .don't beleive the locals as they all seem to have got the toxin in there system to some degree. these fish are best left alone ,believe me
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Old 03-12-2015, 19:08   #56
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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Stu - we gotta start taking this seriously - I mean, have you seen this on your list?

, wine - harm to Australian industry , wine industry damage (California) , wine industry disaster (France) , wine - more English , wine industry disaster (US) , wine - more English , wine - England too hot , wine -German boon , wine - no more French , wine passé (Napa)

We might have to resort to drinking gin with our dinner
If it affects hops & barley, too, we're in for rum, gin, vodka, etc.

Could get vehry intahresting.
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Old 03-12-2015, 19:51   #57
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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You may have got away with it for 47 years, but you may end up in hospital, paralysed, tomorrow.
Muckle Flugga

Yes, I agree with this. It is as I read and as we experienced. There seems to be a point above which, if you have the toxin in your liver, you will become symptomatic. You may have had it start building up as soon as you caught fish in the South Pacific. I suspect this was the case for Jim and me. The toxin is not effectively excreted from one's liver, and stays there.

By the way, to the poster who wrote to avoid red fish. Well that's one way to avoid some of them. However, there are places where Coral Trout are safe and others, where they are not. For Jim and me, having been symptomatic, it is most prudent simply to avoid reef fish of any color, forevermore.

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Old 03-12-2015, 20:44   #58
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

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as from one that has the toxin, we ate only small fish up to 3 kg, all reef fish. the one that put us over the edge was a Blue spotted grouper around the 5 kg mark, major symptoms started about two days after the large fish and varied differently among my family. minor symptoms over a two year period was headaches and fatigue, joint pains, could not drink any alcohol without blinding headaches, rashes and the reversal of hot and cold sensation . now after 3 years minor symptoms return after eating only small amounts of seafood, but can now have a beer or two!!
So anyone travelling the pacific route ,please take care, keep to eating small tuna around the 2-3 kg mark or only small amounts of reef fish
Well after reading about the serious misfortunes of those that have suffered from the toxins from their tropical fish diets, I will be sure to follow Garethk's recommendation as to limiting my fish intake to modest levels; Hope and pray that all of you that have been afflicted continue in your recoveries.

I'm so going back to Fish Friday's only, keeping with my childhood upbringing as an Irish Catholic. Fish and chips with malt vinegar. I love my beer or two [or three, . . . ] too much to risk the potential of having long lingering adverse reactions to such favored beverages, rather do without the fish, albeit I really enjoy sushi restaurants.

As to Global Warming, like many things it has it good points, e.g., a few degrees improvement of the average annual temperature in Montana thereby extending the number of frost free days from say 90 to perhaps 95 or even 100, which should allow for my tomato plants to increase their yield of ripe red tomatoes to perhaps a whopping 20% with only 80% being dark green before they freeze. I have never grown a fondness to green tomatoes, fried or otherwise. Anyone have a good recipe for hard green tomatoes? Albeit, such a gain in frost free days also means an increase in the duration of forest fire season, choke, choke, no joy during those smoky days up here in Big Sky Country. Ah, but this fall was blessedly warm, our Begonias were still alive and in spectacular full bloom as late as November 15th, never seen that before.

As to COP21, we will be sending a delegation to represent us, just as soon as we can plow the roadway clear. Paris here we come: Credit goes to Duckboy postcards.
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Old 03-12-2015, 20:50   #59
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

Because I have high iron in my blood, (even though I stay away from high iron foods), I started donating double reds at the red cross, that removes some of the iron from your organs, i.e. liver. I wonder if it may remove this toxin from the liver.

By the way, one of the best threads I have read in awhile. Thanks. BTW, is there any iron in rum?
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Old 03-12-2015, 21:04   #60
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Re: Ciguatera - foodborne illness - think twice before eating reef fish

Sorry if I have scarred people of eating fish all together,I used to eat fish about 3 times a week with no problems at all up until we cruised the warmer waters of the pacific.
I can still eat small amounts of local fish to my area in water temps around 18-22 degrees mid north coast NSW Australia with no great problems, So please keep eating fish but be mindful that in warmer waters you have a greater risk. but for myself, all reef fish in warmer waters are off the menu
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