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Old 02-10-2015, 02:31   #31
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

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Ah, Jim, bravo BTW on the hard dodger. They're nigh on a necessity in my book. So long as one uses good glazing, & remembers to make a few of said see through panels either removable, or better, opening. Like by using a couple of Lewmar deck hatches for windshield panels.
Hard dodgers are a plus on most cruising boats, but especially so on pointy-ended, low freeboard, overloaded, flush decked IOR ex-racers!! Insatiable I had a fair amount of green water on deck when driving to windward in much breeze, and with the flush deck, it just came rushing back and typically penetrated the old cloth dodger and then lodged down my neck as a rule.

The hard dodger, laminated up from thin layers of ply and epoxy with glass over ended that problem for good. Had fixed glazing, but a large opening hatch in the overhead. The fixed glazing meant no leaks when hit by boarding seas, the overhead hatch provided ventilation when required and we loved it! If you should eventually need to design one, try to not give in to the urge to have standing head room under it. This inevitably ruins the lines of a boat, and simply is not needed.

Good luck in your search, Unciv. There are lots of older unloved race boats languishing our there. Some can be great cruisers, others, well, its a hard row to hoe.

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Old 02-10-2015, 03:15   #32
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

I've never understood why hard dodgers aren't offered as options on most production boat. Particularly as, even in places as warm as SoCal, you see easily 1/3 of the boats with canvas dodgers. And the numbers are a lot higher on boats which do any kind of distance work.
I mean, for the same cost (or honestly, less) you can build a (lighter) hard dodger, than you can a canvas on frame one.

One time I was sitting around, killing a 6-pack, with Steve Rander, on his boat S/V Rage. Well, we got to talking about such things. And he said that when they built the 77' racer, S/V Jelik. It's dodger was built out of 12oz carbon fiber on either side of some 1" Divinycell. With a piece of 3mm Lexan bonded onto the front, with some goop in a tube by Plexus.
That thing couldn't have weighed 1/3lb per sqft.

If you scale up the image in the article, you can see the dodger on Jelik. http://wyliedesigngroup.com/press_fi...%20Builder.pdf
Obviously it's an abridged type dodger. But given the materials, & simplicity of it's build, it'd be easy to design one to suit anyone's taste, & still have it both be; feather weight, & cheap.

As I KNOW, that a few yards of CF, a liter or two of epoxy, & some acrylic or Lexan, is cheaper than the several $k that a conventional canvas on frame dodger costs. Not to mention that the former is immune to; UV, wind, flogging sheets, & various other wear & teqr that eats Sunbrella & Isenglass.

And the thing is, that with any fore thought at all, it'd be easy to make such things as modular, bolt on units. So that if a boat's buyer wanted one later on, it'd be easy to add one. Or if you wanted to pull yours to lessen the boat's windage for racing, it'd take all of 1/2hr, max.
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Old 02-10-2015, 05:08   #33
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

Here's another cheapie. New engine, but old rod rigging? http://seattleyachts.com/?page_id=583

Off course down here the boat of choice would be something like a swarbrick S&S 34. A touch small for you, but bulletproof, I think the design holds the record for the most singlehanded non stop voyages around the world! Or any of the baker built Joubert's like the Brolgas.

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Old 02-10-2015, 05:25   #34
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

Unciv, re. your question about hard vs soft dinghy on the foredeck.

I made the switch from soft to hard about a month ago. The hard 8' dinghy actually has a smaller footprint on my foredeck than my 8' inflatable did. Its easier to work around and to see over too. Plus its easier to manage.

When launching or recovering the inflatable from the foredeck, the little folds and creases always got hung up on my life lines, quite frustrating really. The hard dink just kind of slides across the life lines.

With the inflatable (110 lbs, if alone, I absolutely had to use my spare halyard to my main winch to get it on board.

My hard dink at only 71 lbs, I can just hand over hand, pull the boat up with its bow painter and drag it over my life lines.

My foredeck does have bulwarks, and as you're looking at flush deck, I would think you would need to pay considerably more attention to your lashing job than I do though.

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Old 02-10-2015, 05:31   #35
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Guys, I’m getting close to picking my next boat (for long term cruising/living aboard), but need some feedback.

Ideally I’d have a mid-sized multihull. I love their deck space, lack of heel, & voluminous storage.
Their drawbacks; initial cost, & taking a “time out” sooner due to weather. Meaning putting the boat in "park", & riding things out in some manner – heave to, use a sea anchor, or drogue, etc. when it’s rough.

Thanks
Quite interested in the comment about multi hulls and weather - we feel multi hulls handle the weather great - just incase this is a major factor in your decision ...
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Old 02-10-2015, 11:44   #36
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

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Quite interested in the comment about multi hulls and weather - we feel multi hulls handle the weather great - just incase this is a major factor in your decision ...

On this point, I'm going to have to argue for my original statement. As given multi's lighter nature, as well as less efficient underwater profile (generally), coupled with a lot more windage, it makes it harder for them in poor conditions. Especially lighter weight ones. Which to take advantage of their performance, is a trait which they need to have.
Even some of their designers on here, would likely say as much if asked.

Amongst professionals, it's generally commonly acknowledged that when the weather gets nasty, multi's have to change gears sooner. As well as changing into survival mode earlier than an equivalent mono. Unless you're talking about the full on, maximal racing machines... crewed by professionals. And even then, the "rules" (in terms of how to sail them in conditions X, & Y) are much different.

And, knock on wood, such is my experience, given a lot of sea time, when Neptune's throwing a fit. As a well designed mono can keep making progress to weather, with far less leeway, than a multi, when it's blowing 40kts.

It's just a question of physics. And even in the accounts of multi's in heavy weather which you read on here, you'll see that they make more leeway, & less progress to weather, in the snotty stuff. As well as needing to use techniques to slow down when going downwind, again, when it's nasty, than do well founded mono's.

As a case in point, most of the drogues & sea anchors which we have now, disn't exist before multi's became popular. They are an almost direct outgrowth of multi's need for assistive tools, at the higher end of the sea state spectrum, to help their skippers control them safely.

Though if you've got data to show otherwise... you're welcome to steer me to it/educate me. And as to my statements, I have plenty of data, & input by both professional sailors, & multihull designers, which will back them up.
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Old 02-10-2015, 19:59   #37
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
On this point, I'm going to have to argue for my original statement. As given multi's lighter nature, as well as less efficient underwater profile (generally), coupled with a lot more windage, it makes it harder for them in poor conditions. Especially lighter weight ones. Which to take advantage of their performance, is a trait which they need to have.
Even some of their designers on here, would likely say as much if asked.

Amongst professionals, it's generally commonly acknowledged that when the weather gets nasty, multi's have to change gears sooner. As well as changing into survival mode earlier than an equivalent mono. Unless you're talking about the full on, maximal racing machines... crewed by professionals. And even then, the "rules" (in terms of how to sail them in conditions X, & Y) are much different.

And, knock on wood, such is my experience, given a lot of sea time, when Neptune's throwing a fit. As a well designed mono can keep making progress to weather, with far less leeway, than a multi, when it's blowing 40kts.

It's just a question of physics. And even in the accounts of multi's in heavy weather which you read on here, you'll see that they make more leeway, & less progress to weather, in the snotty stuff. As well as needing to use techniques to slow down when going downwind, again, when it's nasty, than do well founded mono's.

As a case in point, most of the drogues & sea anchors which we have now, disn't exist before multi's became popular. They are an almost direct outgrowth of multi's need for assistive tools, at the higher end of the sea state spectrum, to help their skippers control them safely.

Though if you've got data to show otherwise... you're welcome to steer me to it/educate me. And as to my statements, I have plenty of data, & input by both professional sailors, & multihull designers, which will back them up.
Ok - I hear you - but I must say that after almost having circumnavigated the globe with many sailors on both Multi hulls and monos its not quite our experience. But then again - the trick is to keep a multihull moving in rough weather and they do just great ... we do not believe in bailing out sooner ... we believe in keeping the boat alive!
You mention 40 knots - yes - been sailing close to the wind in 40 knots and up ... many times (i am sad to say) - I insert the latest time in the link - our passage from Vanuatu to New Caledonia a month or so ago - and we found great performance given the wind state.
Anyway - I remain open minded in this regard, but from my experience we have done better in serious weather conditions than many monos alongside us --- and I am not one of these mono verses multihull guys --- I just call it the way I see it. Cheers for now ...
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Old 03-10-2015, 17:55   #38
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

... just as an 'add on to my last post here' ... should mention that rig on cats plays an important role when 'going to weather' ... the spreaders play a role ... on our cat we have two shorter spreaders (up the mast) ... some cats longer spreaders ... and then the location of the cars also ... and the genoa setting are all crucial. The spreader length 'limits' the ability to bring the leech in toward centre (if I am making sense) ... the point is really ... its not in the hulls that we do not get heading ... its in the configuration of the rig and sails for trimming. 440's go well to wind largely because we get that genoa leech in nice and tight. The other thing is to bring the main traveller windward of dead centre so the boom lies centred - had a lot of comments from many, many types of boats sailing with us about how surprisingly close we are able to sail to the wind. I guess I am trying to say we should not generalise that cats can't go to weather / point ... if anything it has a lot to do with the rig setup and especially length of spreader 'protrusion'
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Old 03-10-2015, 19:43   #39
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

One reason I decided to go the mono route after a very brief trip on a cruising cat was the poor light air performance and poor slow speed close quarters maneuverability.
Admittedly the boat was an overloaded tub with two fixed props, but in flukey winds without speed she just rounded up, unless you backed the headsail.

This made me feel that it wasn't a boat I could safely sail on and off anchor or into a marina berth. I am sure that not all cats are that bad, but I missed the way a mono could surefootedly maneuver in very tight spaces and be completely happy with no engine.

I think Tri's are better in this regard, but I'd always worry about a puff at the wrong time and flying through the bay at 15 knots...
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Old 03-10-2015, 19:58   #40
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Re: Choosing a Boat: A Lil’ Help Please

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Yachtcowboy, you mention the sloop and cutter--from your experience with the Pearsons, or from other people's experience with other boats, what do you think of ketches? Seems there are many advantages of a ketch, but I've never owned one. Just sailed them.What do you think?
I think Olin Stephens would recommend the ketch. (See Heavy Weather Sailing by Adlard Coles)
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