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Old 22-11-2005, 19:43   #46
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Re: Devil to pay

Quote:
Lodesman once whispered in the wind:
This gives rise to the saying "between the devil and the deep blue sea" - obviously not much room between the keel and the briny deep; the nautical equivalent of 'being in a tight spot', or 'between a rock and a hard place.'
You want me to expand on that?

Speaking of monkeys - I don't know the originator (maybe Dennis Miller): "It's been said that if you give a million monkeys a million typewriters and enough time, they will recreate the entire works of Shakespeare - thanks to the internet, we know that's false."

Oh darn, I dropped my banana...

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Old 22-11-2005, 19:56   #47
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Close, but one minor difference. The Devil and Deep Blue remark comes from caulking while underway. Crewmen would hang from a bosun's chair to caulk seems while the boat was under way. The devil to pay refers just to caulking the longest seem.
Although, I have heard the reference to caulking while careened, with the tide rising, but I am suspect of the source.
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Old 22-11-2005, 20:12   #48
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Actually, I believe that "Between a rock and a hard place is a modernised loose translation of "between charybdis and scylla who were two sea monsters who inhabited the waters either side of a narrow strait that was the passage for manys a poor sailor (including Ulysses).

Scylla was daughter of the god Phorcys, but when the goddess Circe was spurned by her suitor, Circe, in a fit of jealousy, turned her into a 6 headed monster with 12 feet who barked like a dog and stole (and ate) 6 crew from every ship that passed.

Charybdis was the daughter of Poseidon & Gaia who was turned into a water sucking / spitting monster by Zeus

There is a dangerous rock / shoal called Scylla and a whirlpool called Charybdis on either side of the Strait of Messina -when navigating this narrow straight you have a rock on one side and a whirlpool on the other, with only a small gap - truly you are then between a rock and a hard place.
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Old 22-11-2005, 21:38   #49
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Good stuff Weyalan!
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Old 22-11-2005, 22:42   #50
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'tween the devil and the deep blue

Kai,

It depends on which definition of 'devil' you believe. Some say it's the seam where the deck meets the sheer strake, but I believe the other version - it runs next to keel. That would make it impossible to pay underway. Hanging over the side in a boatswain's chair doesn't seem any more onerous than having to go aloft, but I guess you could say it's a tenuous situation. I like my version better, but the history of these things is suspect at best.

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Old 22-11-2005, 22:55   #51
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AAARRRR! Call it the devil ye may, but some of my greatest pleasures working on boats have been caulking seams. Can't say I would want to do it underway. The fun of these old sayings is as much in the myth as anything.
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Old 22-11-2005, 22:58   #52
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Kai Nui is right. The "Devil" is the longest seam and runs along the water line area. It had to be sealed inside and outside due to it's position. It wasn't constantly underwater, so it didn't swell and seal like other seams below water line and of course, it was also subject to a lot of water pressure as waves slammed against it etc. Pay was a pitch like mixture and was poured into the seem. Of course, being tar, it had to be hot to pour. "Paying the Devil" was not a nice job to get as it involved being down in a dark, tight, ruff environment to do the job.
The other part of this job was the outside of the ship. It was usually down while the ship was caused to heel, which of course meant wind, which of course meant waves, and so was not a pleasant place to be either. Once again this hot Pitch was poured in to the seem, but to do so, you had to be down level with or even below the seam, very close to the water. So you were between the Devel Seam and the Deep blue sea, hence the "between the Devil and the Deep blue Sea".
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Old 22-11-2005, 23:07   #53
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We have a commercial boat here in the harbor called the "Charlie Noble". Great name for a stink potter. Know where it came from?
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Old 22-11-2005, 23:12   #54
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One thing I forgot. I should mention what Pitch is. It is a tar made from Pine Oil, Not Coal tar.
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Old 22-11-2005, 23:18   #55
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Nasty stuff to work with too. Burns like hell, and can not be worked cold.
Flax and Sikaflex! better living through modern chemisrty
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Old 23-11-2005, 10:59   #56
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ok why the term poop deck? ....jt
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Old 23-11-2005, 11:09   #57
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OK Kai Nui, why Charlie Noble???
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Old 23-11-2005, 11:56   #58
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A "Charlie Noble" is the chimney vent Cap, tho' the term is sometimes used to refer to wood or charcoal Heater itself.
A British merchant service captain, Charles Noble, is said to be responsible for the origin, about 1850, of this nickname for the galley smokestack. It seems that Captain Noble, discovering that the stack of his ship's galley was made of copper, ordered that it be kept bright. The ship's crew then started referring to the stack as the "Charley Noble."

I have no idea how a type of Boat would come by the moniker.

Minding your Ps and Qs might refer to the admonishment to seamen not to soil their navy Pea-jackets with their tarred Queues (pigtails).
A pea jacket is a jacket made of pea, a heavy, coarse wool called Pilot Cloth.

Poop Deck comes from the Latin puppis, meaning stern.
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Old 23-11-2005, 15:16   #59
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Poop deck definitions - isnt the web wonderful:

A raised deck on the aft end of a sailing vessel.
ladywashington.org/glossary.html

Aft deck just above the main deck. Usually the officer's mess and kitchen are on this level along with the crews mess.
www.geocities.com/freighterman.geo/define.html

The deck forming the roof of a poop or poop cabin, built on the upper deck and extending from the mizzenmast aft.
encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Deck_(ship)

The Poop Deck is the raised area to the rear (aft) of a ship.
www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic%20glossary.shtml

the stern section of a ship.
www.biography.ms/Glossary_of_nautical_terms.html

an exposed partial weather deck on the stern superstructure of a ship
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

In naval architecture, a poop deck is a deck that constitutes the roof of a poop cabin built in the aft (rear) part of the superstructure of a ship. The name originates from the Latin, puppis, or the elevated stern deck. In sailing ships, with the steerage at the stern, an elevated position was ideal for both navigation and observation of the crew.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poop_deck
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Old 23-11-2005, 17:46   #60
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on old sailing vessels the crew went over the bow rails on to the netting thus head. the officers and passengers used a small deck built on the stern with holes in the deck. thus poop deck ....jt
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