Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

[Mithril Bham]

I instructed ASA for years. Learned a lot but never thought it equivalent to RYA or US Sailing. Depends on the person. There are some very competent ASA instructors since that is where the jobs are. I learned, when young, on a Lightning, sailing the San Juans with no engine. Lots of current and weather. Almost died a few times. Usually sailed alone. Would go out for days with a salmon pole and a crab pot. The best sailors I have ever known have no certification except, perhaps, USCG necessary for commercial work. It's mainly about putting in the time, reading and paying attention. A bit of luck helps as well. One of the best sailors I have ever known drowned when he fell of the boat sailing by himself on a nice summer day.

[belizesailor]

The most effective comnination for shortening your learning curve is a combination of training and experience building.

Ive been an ASA instructor since 1994, worked at a few different schools, and run my own school...so know ASA quite well. Historically, ASA had some serious qualitative issues with some of their instructors and schools. This did not help their quality of instruction or reputation in the market place. When US Sail got into the sailing instruction business, this was a wake up call for ASA. Under Charlie Nobles' leadership they have done a lot of cleaning house, revoking affiliation of some schools and instructors, raising the quality bar internally, and extensively revising and expanded their materials. Their current standards and materials are quite good.

The issue in the end lies with the school/instructor. Significant improvements have been made, but there are still some bad ones to weed out. If you have received poor quality instruction from an ASA affiliate, then I encourage you to report it to ASA.

[belizesailor]

(Deleted)

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by syohana

I've had crew with ASA certificates who think they are yachtmasters. In my experience ASA certificates are not worth the paper they are written on and the people who get them gain an unjustified sense of confidence in they own ability which makes them positively dangerous to have on board. One "asa yachtmaster" couldn't do basic navigation and did positively dangerous things on deck, frequently. When questioned, I discovered that on his yachtmaster course they barely left the harbour due to bad weather, there was no exam at all and yet he has an ASA certificate claiming to be equal to an RYA yachtmaster and he believes that too!

A genuine yachtmaster certificate awarded by a genuine RYA examiner (not ASA) after a genuine exam has a lot more value but you still need to look closely at the details:

Many who have a yachtmaster course completion certificate claim to have a "yachtmaster". They don't. A real yachmaster certificate awarded after passing the exam looks very different, usually comes in a dark blue binding looking like an oversize passport, has a photo on it, a rubber stamp on it and states specifically that they are licensed to skipper a sailing vessel with auxiliary engine up to 200 tons by the RYA/ department of transport.

Does their certificate have a commercial endorsement in it dated in the last 5 years? If not then they can't sail as skipper with anyone other than their immediate family and close friends, certainly not with any kind of paying guest , charterer or passenger.

Was their examination done in non-tidal waters (Caribbean, med etc.). If so then it has very little value and their certificate will be endorsed "non tidal"

Was it done at a zero to hero sailing school like UKSA where they may have only ever experienced sailing one yacht in one area with one crew and one instructor and they did the exam on the same boat with the same crew (who all did their exams on the same day too)? If so then it has little value. Check their log book for a range of types and sizes of sailing vessel in a range of different locations, situations and weather conditions.

Only the combination of formal training, examination by a competent examiner AND a wide breadth of experience gives you a good chance of someone useful and safe.

There are o many muppets out there who think they know what they are doing, be careful!

Just to clarify, there is no ASA "Yachtmaster" certification.

Clearly if a student never left harbor and did not complete a written exam they received very poor instruction. Both on the water/hands on skills and a written exam are required for every ASA certification.

If you still have contact with this student, then I would very much like to know the name of the school and instructor where they received their training (...or rather lack thereof).

As I posted earlier, ASA has had serious qualitative issues in years past. One key contributing factor was the instructor qualification process, some instructors who never should have been certified were allowed into the system. This is bad for everyone: ASA schools, ASA, the industry, and most of all the students. I saw this happen in the process a few times...sailors I knew get certified as instructors who were totally unsuitable for the job (the Instructor Evaluator who certified them has since been removed). This motivated me to become an Instructor Evaluator (IE) to help prevent that from happening. Its surprising how many show up to IQCs (Instructor Qualification Clinics) unprepared and/or unqualified. I feel strongly that its the responsibility of the IE to weed them out early...so that situations like you described dont occur.

[chris14679]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Just to clarify, there is no ASA "Yachtmaster" certification.

Clearly if a student never left harbor and did not complete a written exam they received very poor instruction. Both on the water/hands on skills and a written exam are required for every ASA certification.

If you still have contact with this student, then I would very much like to know the name of the school and instructor where they received their training (...or rather lack thereof).

I looked back at the certificate he sent me prior to the trip and I must apologise to the ASA in this particular case (although I've had other poor crew with ASA certs). My memory failed me on the acronym which was actually IYT, I must be getting old His certificate was actually issued by "Tortola sailing school" and claims to be under the authority of "IYT Worldwide (International Yacht Training)". It claims to be an STCW endorsed and "master of yacht 200 ton limited (sail)" but he admitted he never even took a practical exam! It has a UK MCA logo on it with the word "approved" underneath in a different font but I'd question what, if any aspect of that certificate they actually approve of. In the small print on page 2 the certificate claims to be recognised in cayman islands, poland, lebanon, marshall islands and the united arab emirates but nowhere else, I should have spotted that but the MCA Approved logo fooled me. The accompanying STCW certs such as first aid cert (also from IYT) are issued "under the authority of the marshall islands". Hmmmmm.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by chris14679

I looked back at the certificate he sent me prior to the trip and I must apologise to the ASA in this particular case (although I've had other poor crew with ASA certs). My memory failed me on the acronym which was actually IYT, I must be getting old His certificate was actually issued by "Tortola sailing school" and claims to be under the authority of "IYT Worldwide (International Yacht Training)". It claims to be an STCW endorsed and "master of yacht 200 ton limited (sail)" but he admitted he never even took a practical exam! It has a UK MCA logo on it with the word "approved" underneath in a different font but I'd question what, if any aspect of that certificate they actually approve of. In the small print on page 2 the certificate claims to be recognised in cayman islands, poland, lebanon, marshall islands and the united arab emirates but nowhere else, I should have spotted that but the MCA Approved logo fooled me. The accompanying STCW certs such as first aid cert (also from IYT) are issued "under the authority of the marshall islands". Hmmmmm.

Yeah, sounds like he just bought a certificate.

[chris14679]

... And to reply to the accusations of jingoistic "british is best" attitude, not at all. I pointed out that RYA certs can't be relied on either, especially the "zero to hero" schools and the non-tidal exams. A US 150 ton Master is a respectable qualification with a real exam and that's what you should look for from an American skipper, with the proviso that many of them have little or no experience of real tides or currents, but that's fine if you don't want to sail in tidal waters.

It is worth considering though that sailing is so much harder with big tides, strong currents, cold, wet weather and cold water that sailors from the high latitudes are a very different breed. The UK is not the only such country by any means. Plenty of good sailors get their experience in places like Cape town, Hobart, Canada, the Netherlands, the Atlantic coast of France and even a few in the northern USA! In those conditions the incompetent get weeded out very quickly by terrifying experiences and mistakes with real consequences. As someone earlier in the thread said, the Caribbean is Disneyland and if that's where you learn then you'll have a great time but learn very much less in steady trade winds the same every day, warm water and no tide... I love it there! Plenty of incompetent people in the Caribbean having fun messing about in boats and they mostly come to no harm, but when it comes to hiring a professional skipper to teach you and/or take care of your safety, choose a real professional such as a US 150 ton master or an RYA tidal yachtmaster or if you're lucky someone with an instructor certificate from a reputable organisation.