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Old 25-12-2018, 19:16   #16
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

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Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77 View Post
There were several sections of which many took 90% to pass. Others were 70%, If you failed a section, you were done. Come back the next day or whatever. If you failed that same section again, , come back after 30 days after more study and then continue on with the remaining sections. This exam blows ASA out of the stadium. No contest.
I hold a USCG Master Near Coastal with Auxiliary Sail endorsement merchant mariner credential ("captain license"). I also have completed the ASA training through Advanced.

When it comes to sea service experience, the 720 day minimum needed for the Master license beats the ASA. There is also a vastly greater body of knowledge needed in general seamanship: understanding of tides, sea states, atmospherics, boat behavior, vessel weight and balance, etc. And much more knowledge needed of rules-of-the-road, day shapes, aids to navigation, navigation (out of sight of land), pilotage (within sight of land), voyage planning, weather avoidance, etc. Basically, every body of knowledge that pertains in common to motor and sailing vessels is much more extensive with the Master's license -- because its focus is on motor vessels.

But... since sailing vessels are not commonly used these days for commerce - transporting people and cargo for hire - one would have to go back 100 years to find the need for extensive knowledge of sailing in the Merchant Marine; and this is reflected in a thin veneer of knowledge needed to pass the auxiliary sail endorsement exam. Today, a licensed master requirement on a sailing vessel conducting commerce is a very unusual occurrence. And masters licensed for sailing vessels without an engine (such a thing exists) must be truly rare indeed. At least in the U.S.

In my mind, to be truly rounded out as a professional sailor, one should posses both the Master license and the ASA rating. Legally, if you intend to carry paying passengers in a sailboat, you are running afoul of the law without an appropriate license (though a Master license may be more than you need). And if you are ferrying vessels (which I do), the insurance may not cover a mishap if the skipper isn't licensed. But if all you intend to do is sail recreationally, the ASA rating is the best place to start. Just be sure to get a sea service form filled out from every skipper you serve under, just in case you decide to go the licensed mariner route later. The person attesting to your experience doesn't need to be licensed. In fact, you can self-certify time on your own boat.

The master license (and lower level license) also requires passing a background check every five years, and a drug screen every 90 days, or signing up for random drug screening. So if you hire a licensed master, you have some minimal level of assurance your captain isn't a tweaker who was recently released from prison. Still, check references.
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Old 25-12-2018, 19:21   #17
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

Why not RYA or US Sailing in Caribbean.
There are some excellent ASA instructors but it depends.
Aren't there RYA instructors there?
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Old 26-12-2018, 00:31   #18
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

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Originally Posted by guyrj33 View Post
If you've been sailing for that length of time, is someone requiring you to hire a skipper?

I've sailed to Bermuda 3 times and can navigate in fog, but it's not documented.
My sailing has mainly been on 30ft monohulls in Sweden. A 45ft catamaran in the Caribbean will be a bit different. Especially since my wife has minimal experience
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Old 26-12-2018, 00:33   #19
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

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Originally Posted by Mithril Bham View Post
Why not RYA or US Sailing in Caribbean.
There are some excellent ASA instructors but it depends.
Aren't there RYA instructors there?
Yes, that’s my thinking as well. If I could use this vacation as a part of my qualification. I will search for a RYA skipper
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Old 26-12-2018, 00:35   #20
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

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Originally Posted by guyrj33 View Post
If you've been sailing for that length of time, is someone requiring you to hire a skipper?

I've sailed to Bermuda 3 times and can navigate in fog, but it's not documented.
No, it’s just my own decision. I have no catamaran experience at all. I will see this as a learning cost
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Old 26-12-2018, 13:44   #21
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

USCG Master, most ASA courses. Also a pilot.
I have learned something from everyone that was in a cockpit with me. The advantage for me is to learn something new. The guy that knows too much is a dangerous person. All of us have holes in our knowledge. The more we expose ourselves to other sailors/pilots, those holes are filled.
ASA instructors have a lesson plan to teach in order to cover an amazing amount of information in the shortest time. You will most likely forget most of it until you need it. The RYA does as well. Both spend a great deal of time debating the information needed for each course. Will they teach you everything, NO. Will they give you resources to look up when you need it, YES.
After 31 years on the water, I am still learning. Hope, I never stop.
Now, do you need an ASA instructor? Probably not but the charter company is most likely using his recommendation for you to bareboat charter. If you plan to charter with that company again, no question.
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Old 26-12-2018, 13:50   #22
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

First, Catamarans are easy to over power for a mono sailor. It is hard to feel power because they don't heel.
Second, lock the helm and use the twin screws to dock.
Third, use the bridal when anchoring.
Fourth, enjoy the extra space.
Have fun!!!!
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Old 26-12-2018, 14:46   #23
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

If I could make a recommendation. Hire a skipper for 2-3 days in order to capture the knowledge of the boat (systems) and also localknowledge of the area (BVI). This will give you specific knowledge for that boat and also all the local knowledge not found in the cruising guide.
Seems like I am spending 2-3 days figuring the boat quirks and also traveling with all the other people that read the cruising guide. It is nice for someone to tell you all the places not in the cruising guides.
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Old 26-12-2018, 15:25   #24
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

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Hi,
For our upcoming charter in the caribbean we will hire a skipper.
If we select the slightly more expensive ASA Skipper, will that be any advantage for my future RYA Day Skipper course?
If not, are there any other advantages?
TIA.
To cut past the BS by all the experts.

What is the other less expensive choice?
Is the ASA Skipper, just an ASA qualified skipper or is the skipper an instructor?

If you are paying for a Skipper, I would say paying for a qualified skipper is sufficient.
So it really comes down to what you want to do on your charter. If it’s kick back enjoy a pina colada and the scenery. Why pay extra.
If you want some instruction and hands on experience, pay the extra and get the instructions.
Should you choose to go further. The experience will certainly help towards an additional sailing certification.
A good instructor will help you learn the basics by covering all the stuff you need to understand.
A good sailor will still give good lessons but will probably miss some of the basic essentials.

It doesn’t matter much which organization the instructor belongs to. They all cover the same basic stuff.

You may find the RYA day skipper is the next step or ASA.
My recommendation would be get the course and certificate for where you live and where you sail.
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Old 26-12-2018, 16:52   #25
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

If you sail in the North Sea you will find the BVI like Disneyland. Yes, I know there is danger everywhere. I taught ASA in the BVI and am USCG master. Find an RYA instructor. A much more thorough program. US Sailing would be next on my list.
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Old 28-12-2018, 17:08   #26
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

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Originally Posted by ed91e View Post
My sailing has mainly been on 30ft monohulls in Sweden. A 45ft catamaran in the Caribbean will be a bit different. Especially since my wife has minimal experience
I sailed in the Pacific around Los Angles for ten years before I worked in Sweden for two. When asked, I always say I learned sailing in Sweden because the instruction was so good there. You have some excellent instructors in Sweden - as you should. The Swedes have been sailing since long, long before America was discovered (by the Norseman Leif Erikson).

Ask an American instructor how to take in the mainsail, single handed, in a gale, without using an engine. Then show him how to heave-to to take in sail, like you folks do there.


The Swedes taught me this:
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Old 28-12-2018, 17:36   #27
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

People have taken instruction with ASA instructors. I'm sure that's a great way to learn but I also want to say we should not exclude people who have learned from other meathods.
Myself, I sailed a couple of times with friends, bought and read Chapman's then bought my first sailboat a 10M sloop. Then I worked on the boat to make sure she was ready for sea and day sailed mostly singlehanded.
That's how I learned to sail, my daughter has 20 years experience sailing with her parents. She's a natural having been sailing since she was a year old.
The thing I worry about is those that have instructor certificates and those that learned from them tend to think this is the only way to learns, it isn't.
Sailing certicicates are a relatively new commercial concept, lets always leave room for those who have learned in more traditional ways.
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Old 07-01-2019, 10:22   #28
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

I've had crew with ASA certificates who think they are yachtmasters. In my experience ASA certificates are not worth the paper they are written on and the people who get them gain an unjustified sense of confidence in they own ability which makes them positively dangerous to have on board. One "asa yachtmaster" couldn't do basic navigation and did positively dangerous things on deck, frequently. When questioned, I discovered that on his yachtmaster course they barely left the harbour due to bad weather, there was no exam at all and yet he has an ASA certificate claiming to be equal to an RYA yachtmaster and he believes that too!

A genuine yachtmaster certificate awarded by a genuine RYA examiner (not ASA) after a genuine exam has a lot more value but you still need to look closely at the details:

Many who have a yachtmaster course completion certificate claim to have a "yachtmaster". They don't. A real yachmaster certificate awarded after passing the exam looks very different, usually comes in a dark blue binding looking like an oversize passport, has a photo on it, a rubber stamp on it and states specifically that they are licensed to skipper a sailing vessel with auxiliary engine up to 200 tons by the RYA/ department of transport.

Does their certificate have a commercial endorsement in it dated in the last 5 years? If not then they can't sail as skipper with anyone other than their immediate family and close friends, certainly not with any kind of paying guest , charterer or passenger.

Was their examination done in non-tidal waters (Caribbean, med etc.). If so then it has very little value and their certificate will be endorsed "non tidal"

Was it done at a zero to hero sailing school like UKSA where they may have only ever experienced sailing one yacht in one area with one crew and one instructor and they did the exam on the same boat with the same crew (who all did their exams on the same day too)? If so then it has little value. Check their log book for a range of types and sizes of sailing vessel in a range of different locations, situations and weather conditions.

Only the combination of formal training, examination by a competent examiner AND a wide breadth of experience gives you a good chance of someone useful and safe.

There are o many muppets out there who think they know what they are doing, be careful!
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Old 07-01-2019, 14:20   #29
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

The OP didn’t ask about an RYA certificated Skipper prorbably because it is not an available option.
The available option is an ASA skipper, not entirely clear since ASA is not an official US liscence. My guess the option is a US based or registered charter company with a US certified skipper who in addition to his commercial certification is also an ASA instructor.

Which I would say is a good opertunity to learn some things which the OP may find useful if they pursue further courses. The OP mentions RYA day skipper.

Beyond this Even though I am from the Uk. Perhaps because I am. While I take my hat off to anyone who achieves an RYA YM. Which I agree and regard is very good.

I get really tired of the typical British jingoistic presumption about anything British being best and thier disrespect of any other nationalities systems.

England football team is not the best in the world and not very likely to win the World Cup.
The All Blacks will kick England’s Ass at Rugby.
The West Indies will probably beat England at Cricket. Australia will .
German lager is better.
But I do like English Ales.

I find one issue with ASA. What do all the numbers mean?

Day Skipper describes what it is in the box.

Finally any country which built cars with Lucas electric systems was unlikely to rule the world for very long.
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Old 07-01-2019, 17:58   #30
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Re: Charter with ASA Skipper, why?

I am an ASA instructor, have my coast guard OUPV, and a RYA Coastal skipper w/tidal ticket. Although it is true that not all instructors are equal, ASA and RYA both do a good job of covering the basics of sailing. Perhaps a little like getting your first auto driver's license, albeit more complicated, the certifications provide fundamentals and references to help you charter and hopefully to take seriously the lifelong pursuit to become a proper skipper. If you choose to hire an ASA skipper, you may want to consider the following:
1. Make sure he/she has an ASA 204(minimum) Coastal Cruising teaching certification(ASA214 if catamaran);
2. their Coast Guard license is current. You'll pay extra for organized training during your cruise, but I think you'll find your confidence skyrocket
3. pick up the ASA 104 book (ASA114 if catamaran), read it and take the self exams prior to departure.

If you take it seriously, these lessons will benefit you for the rest of your sailing life.

Please also note that it will be important for you to schedule some sailing within a couple of months of your trip to polish your skills before they turn to mush in the waste pile of your memories.

All the best, and hope to see you on the water.
Captain Ken Adams. s/v Little Darling
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