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Old 25-04-2015, 21:48   #31
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

Yes. It is interesting indeed that all is up to the interface of the human and the mechanical. In a way, a sailing boat is, then, meta-physical.

The best set up being a good sailor in a seaworthy craft BUT we all know this is not always attained nor attainable.

A good sailor in a poor craft stands a chance and so does a poor one in a good craft. Which one of the too has the the 'better' chance is, at the time of writing, unknown. But known at the time of arrival into port.

So, we must admit, there is the seaworthy boat and there is the good sailor and then there is the X factor that some will call luck and others will call god.

Beyond any doubt though, a seaworthy boat IS one of the essential elements of the game called offshore sailing.

b.
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Old 25-04-2015, 21:58   #32
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

It is a great book and still viable.
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Old 25-04-2015, 22:50   #33
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

Interesting. A new convert to old designs. Btw, the sailor is still the crucial factor. An experienced old salt will not make the mistake of going out in predicted bad weather or in an unprepared boat. He would have read the fastnet race results and acts accordingly.
If the sea has it out for you it doesn't matter what your sailing, or who you are. I guess I'm saying moving around on the ocean is not like a formula where you imput all the right data and you get the correct answer. Sometimes it is not up to you whether you live or die.
But a good boat helps, as you have seen.
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Old 25-04-2015, 23:08   #34
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

Just for men. Maybe. Adrenalin is like a lovely woman a quick high and a tired aftermath. Mac
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Old 26-04-2015, 01:32   #35
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

One thing many people dont get about AVS/ GZ curves etc, is that a boat which has a very good self righting moment is usually very narrow on the beam, which means it takes a much smaller wave to capsize it in the first place.

The European recreational craft directive reduces the AVS minimums for larger boats starting around 150 going down to 110 for larger boats. It does make sense to a degree since the larger/more beamier a boat is less likely it is to capsize in the first place!
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Old 26-04-2015, 04:18   #36
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

I don't want to get into a pissing match of old vs new whatever but from personal experience having been in a head on collision where I was driving a mid 80s VW and the other car was also a mid 80s Jeep Wrangler (which of course is an unchanged 1940s design with seat belts) - my car was totalled and the other party drove away.

Additionally we must take into account that very few accidents are fatal, most are either fender benders or like mine somewhat damaging. And in these I firmly believe its the cars with the bulk that win. Ask any soccer mom if she prefers the safety of a bulky SUV or the "smart design" of the latest tin can compact. And if I had to chose a car to be in an accident in I'll always chose a 60s-70s MB or somesuch over the latest whatever.
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Old 26-04-2015, 05:38   #37
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Originally Posted by Skuzzlebutt View Post
Let's see:
(a) Design a safe boat, then fit in the "goodies" and "comforts".
(b) Design a floating hotel, then make it as "safe as can be under the circumstances".

Personally, I'll take (a).
.
Correction:

(a) Design a safe boat, then live without any of the "goodies" and "comforts"
(b) Design a floating hotel and make it seaworthy.

See what I did there?

You dance around the subject but clearly are implying that anything other than a slow lumbering full keel boat with very limited goodies and comforts for it's size is unseaworthy and that is flat out false.
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Old 26-04-2015, 06:44   #38
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
You completely missed my point with your rant:
You completely missed that my initial comment was in regard to informing yourself as to the authorship of the book, which is why I had bolded that part of your post when quoting it...

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Don't trust a single source and I don't care who the "guru" is supplying it, hence I don't care who wrote this book.
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that approach... When people like Olin Stephens or Lynn Williams talk about yacht design, or offshore sailing, I'll pay attention, and will be quite likely to place a higher value on what they have to say, than just any other un-named source who might be offering an opinion from the end of the bar... :-)

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I've done plenty of reading on the subject thank you very much.
In that case, seems a bit surprising you've never heard of this book...

:-)
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Old 26-04-2015, 06:45   #39
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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I owned this book and loved it. However, one must be aware that it was written 30 years ago, and much in boat design, materials and construction techniques have changed in this time.
Of course, I agree that it is dated in some respects, by now...

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Our boat has wide, uncluttered side decks to rival any monohull <100' long, but it is a catamaran - which were almost unheard of when that book was written, and not even considered in it (desirable or undesirable).
Nor, does the book include ofshore/expedition motoryachts like Nordhavns, on which many people are voyaging today... Hell, when it was written, even you hadn't yet made the switch to a multihull, correct? :-)

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So if one is looking for a good ol' crab-crusher, then this book will instill sufficient fear around the right hand side of stability curves and ultimate storms, while failing to include construction techniques and materials that did not exist at the time.

On the flip side, most people now would consider the Pardy's Talisan "undesirable" for many reasons unrelated to Marketing Guru's and boat shows.

It reflects the thoughts and experiences of designers whose main body of work is 50 years old now. Great designs and creative people, for sure, but one must view this book in the light that not everything in boat design and construction that has happened in the past 30yrs is bad ("undesirable"). In fact, much of it is good.

Mark
I have simply described this book as the single best "starting point" towards gaining an appreciation of the wide array of considerations that go into rendering some boats more suitable for offshore sailing than others... It's the first recommendation I make when responding to yet another "What's the best boat to buy for my circumnavigation/bluewater/high latitude voyaging I'm gonna begin after I complete my ASA courses?" thread, which have become a neverending staple of sailing forums today :-) I still don't know of a single better primer for those who may not have a clue what 'downflooding' is, or have not done enough offshore sailing to fully appreciate the importance of good cockpit and deck ergonomics, or a system of natural ventilation that can still be effective when underway offshore - one of the features sadly lacking in many of the modern production boats I see out there today...

Certainly, DESIRABLE & UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS is by no means comprehensive, or up to date... For a fuller understanding of design elements, I'd recommend following it up with a reading of Steve Killing's excellent YACHT DESIGN EXPLAINED (if one can find it, or afford it they do)... Then, top it off with Bob Perry's superb and fully up-to-date PERRY ON YACHT DESIGN, and one should be very well armed with the knowledge to make an informed decision for selecting the right boat for you, if planning to venture offshore...
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Old 26-04-2015, 07:58   #40
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
You completely missed that my initial comment was in regard to informing yourself as to the authorship of the book, which is why I had bolded that part of your post when quoting it...



Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that approach... When people like Olin Stephens or Lynn Williams talk about yacht design, or offshore sailing, I'll pay attention, and will be quite likely to place a higher value on what they have to say, than just any other un-named source who might be offering an opinion from the end of the bar... :-)



In that case, seems a bit surprising you've never heard of this book...

:-)
Still missing the point. Never said I was unaware of the book. Nor did I say it was useless.

BUT, it's one point of view and at 30yrs old, it's not particularly up to date with modern materials and design. yes, some stuff is still applicable but much of it is out of date and based on the translation of wooden hull design to fiberglass.
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Old 26-04-2015, 09:32   #41
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

Going back to the point about self righting and the shap of the hull....log analogy... A log is symmetrical. If the boat is upside down the the deck and top sides become the "hull". So it strikes me the "hull" shape has limited influence in self righting, while the cabin top and top sides shape may have more influence.

Not that I can pick out a better design than another. Just saying a upside down boat has different dynamics.

Frankly, I would think that the ability to keep water out of the overturned hull would be a tremendous benefit, no matter the hull shape. A dry boat will float higher and flip back sooner.

Another thing I just picked up elsewhere was a story of a boat being turned turtle, steel boat well founded. For whatever reason she shipped a LOT of water. When she came back up she was so low in the water the sink drains and other times we below water leve, thus they became holes in the hull admitting water. They could not get to the sea cocks (Capt was injured and crew was unfamiliar) and the boat sank, essentially self scuttling.

I had not considered that before. Something to think about.
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Old 26-04-2015, 09:49   #42
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

Another book that I recommend that clearly explains hull design is Cruising Sailboat Kinetics.
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Old 26-04-2015, 09:55   #43
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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How about what happened today in Mobile Bay?


S/V B'Shert

My point in this remark is that we all need to have confidence in our boat's design, construction and maintenance, then we need to be prepared to deal with extreme weather wherever we sail. The "dockside condo" may not be a safe choice even for a day sail across the bay.


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Old 26-04-2015, 10:26   #44
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

One thing not yet mentioned to "qualify" (lol) a boat as ",bluewater" (lol, again!) is being well maintained.

The follow on to that is a skipper / crew who knows there way backwards around the boat. Can identify problems before they get terminal (or more likely start a chain of events) and is willing to address the problems via more than keeping fingers crossed....And folks onboard can fix / bodge! as needed. Most of that comes from doing hands on maintainence on the actual boat.

The subtext I read on threads like this is "I want to find a boat that requires no thought from " me", nor any need to learn skills or gain experience". The answer to that boat search is: you be sh#t outta luck. Lol
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Old 26-04-2015, 10:42   #45
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
One thing not yet mentioned to "qualify" (lol) a boat as ",bluewater" (lol, again!) is being well maintained.

The follow on to that is a skipper / crew who knows there way backwards around the boat. Can identify problems before they get terminal (or more likely start a chain of events) and is willing to address the problems via more than keeping fingers crossed....And folks onboard can fix / bodge! as needed. Most of that comes from doing hands on maintainence on the actual boat.

The subtext I read on threads like this is "I want to find a boat that requires no thought from " me", nor any need to learn skills or gain experience". The answer to that boat search is: you be sh#t outta luck. Lol
Exactly! And I am amazed at the advice often given on CF - "just buy the boat you will sail for the next 10-20-30 years, blah-blah" when in fact one should first learn all the other necessary stuff related to seamanship besides knowing Colregs, Racing Rules, discharge prohibitions and proper burgee etiquette. And one only learns this stuff by hands on experience on ANY boat rather than waiting for the perfect boat to come along.

To put it in more understandable terms - it is the difference between waiting for marriage to have one's first sexual experience and doing it way before the marriage even if one knows (or especially if one knows) that these partners will never even become "relationship material".
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