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Old 29-04-2015, 17:47   #151
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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I don't need to spend time on them.
so no experience, got it
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Old 29-04-2015, 17:58   #152
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

David Sadler, designer of the Co32 (and it'ssmaller predecessor, the Co26 was a member of my then UK Yacht Club ( I'm still an overseas member) and his next design venture was the Sadler 32 and there were some of these also on the infamous 1979 Fastnet race, these had bolted on fin keels (OMG!) and non keel attached rudders but they did have a small skeg. These Sadler 32s had much better accommodations but were nowhere near as pretty in my book as the Co32. many of the ones on the ill fated 1979 Fastnet retired to Cork or other harbours in Southern Ireland by dint of motorsailing back upwind into the weather, something few Co32s could do with their smaller motors and props in a rudder aperture. A friend of mine's son was rescued by a French rescue helo from his Co32 that was s incidentally sinking in the Bay of Biscay, so they may be good but are not invincible whatever the legends may say..
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Old 29-04-2015, 17:59   #153
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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so no experience, got it
42 years experience with boating, 25 years sailing which would include 10 years of sailing 8-10 months out of the year while in Florida and racing almost every weekend and Wednesday Nights as well.

Then add just sailing over to Pensacola Beach when not a race weekend simply to get hammered and chase 40+ year old ladies that still thought they could where bikinis!!

Then sailing a Nacra 6.0 home singlehanded trapped out in 15 plus knots on a reach across Pensacola Bay with the leeward bow 2" from going underwater most of the way. Sometimes it did go under but I could recover it..........

Btw, my 6.0 had sail number 225!

https://www.google.com/search?q=Nacr...AUoAw&dpr=1.55
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:04   #154
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
42 years experience with boating, 25 years sailing which would include 10 years of sailing 8-10 months out of the year and racing almost every weekend and Wednesday Nights as well.

Then add just sailing over to Pensacola Beach simply to get hammered and chase 40+ year old ladies that still thought they could where bikinis!!
Right, no experience on a cruising boat including the boats you keep supporting, none of which you have sailed on. Like I wrote, I got it.
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:09   #155
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

I basically know two types of boats: the ones that can still sail in heavy weather, and the ones that can't. If you own one of the latter, your options are severely reduced to say the least.
Some fall in the middle in the sense that they will punch (usually), but won't run: for a start, know what you have got and act accordingly.

What always amazes me is when people claim that the boat should be good enough to "take care of them", and essentially try to subtract themselves from the problem: this is never going to happen.

If the boat can't sail any more, the crew has no reliable control over the angle it assumes with the sea, it takes some speed to maintain course stability. This means that sooner or later the boat will end up beam-on where stability is minimum and exposed hull area is maximum. At this point, it is a matter of probabilities and luck. It only takes one good breaking one on the beam to cause a severe knock-down or worse, damage, injuries etc. Is it that interesting or relevant? Not so much, because that situation should have been avoided in the first place: don't place the boat in a position of least stability with highest risk for a start.
I sailed a 1968 30' Dufour Arpege (4500kg loaded) over 55000NM between Iceland and the Antarctic, Alaska and you-name-it. It got knocked down to various extents (sometimes close to 90 degrees) 7 times in the first 14 months in the Atlantic because each time I thought the sea wasn't big enough (yet) or wasn't going to break. Well it did anyway, it was a small boat and over we went. After that I decided it was time to go about it differently and I kept it upright for the following 6 years. It pulled through waves that would have wiped out a small ship with the sea on the beam. The sea broke right over it, covering it from end to end.
The Arpege was a pretty seaworthy boat or I wouldn't be here. It was highly capable upwind and cautiously, unnervingly ok on the run. It wasn't perfect, but it was a matter of knowing it and sailing it accordingly.

In my books, boats that can't sail any more in high winds and rough seas are bad, dangerous boats, because ultimately the crew runs out of options. The so acclaimed Contessa 32s won't run in true heavy weather: I know of one that pitchpoled and busted everything after running with the whole foredeck underwater and the stern high up in a storm in the southern Indian Ocean. It comes down to hull resistance. The bloody thing can't accelerate. That skipper would have been far better off turning around and facing it: only option left. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, but sometimes we can learn something this way. Cavalier 32s (common in NZ and Australia) are similar, great upwind and unmanageable in following seas. Same for some of the Peterson 40' Admiral's Cup designs of the 1970s.

Some heavy, long-keeled boats with a blunt bow and a pinched stern won't point and won't run in high winds and heavy seas. I don't care how ballasted and what not they are, a yacht sailing and well-handled will outlive them hundred times over in true heavy weather, because it won't get hammered on the beam, picked up by a wave and dumped into a trough.

So I want reasonably low hull resistance, because when there is a vertical wall of breaking water chasing the hull, I don't want to get caught into it. I don't know of any other viable option besides keeping ahead of it until it stops breaking. I also want good course stability in these conditions, because broaching means getting sideways into it and potentially game over.
I want a boat that can point and punch no matter the wind strength. This is not going to happen with a little edifice of canvas, solar panels, wind generator, davits and junk constructed over the stern. Not only the windage is huge in high winds and it ruins the pointing angle, but the weight also regularly trims the boats by the stern, giving them weather helm. Lean and mean with a clean rig are the words for punching into really big stuff to stay in one piece and alive.

Besides this, sure, there are plenty of design factors that result in gains or disadvantages in heavy weather. Flared topsides that readily dig into the water when the hull heels hard over are not too "healthy". When all hell breaks loose, boats do tend to get thrown around at times no matter what.
A reasonably high AVS is desirable, say 130 degrees on a 40' and more on smaller boats. Designs that are fully self-righting on the paper are often pigs in other regards for a range of very good reasons. There is no gain to be found there as far as I am concerned.
For standard cruising without extreme sea conditions, 110-120 degrees (what the ISO standard often delivers) seems to be reasonably adequate as long as the boats are sailed and handled correctly.

An intact and fully inverted boat can be stable for sure: I remember a French cruising yacht that had taken an isolated beam-on hit off Cape Horn, 25 knots of wind and long regular sea, over 20 years ago now and stayed upside down. It came back once it had flooded sufficiently: yacht hulls lose their inverted stability as they gradually fill up, and long before sinking. Now, how often does that happen?

When it comes to designing hull shapes that are able to accelerate if needed, remain course stable at speed and can point into high winds, huge progress has been made in the past 25 years. In terms of heavy weather handling, a well-designed and well built modern ocean cruising yacht is definitely at an advantage (especially on the run) compared to older boats, just like many boats of the late 1960s and 70s are at an advantage punching on the real oldies.

Seaworthiness issues are a mixture of: bad hull shape/design sometimes, "I don't want to sail the thing any more" attitude and nonsensical, unsafe boat "preparation". That rather leaves a lot in the hands of the skipper/owner.
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:12   #156
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Right, no experience on a cruising boat including the boats you keep supporting, none of which you have sailed on. Like I wrote, I got it.
Keep trying but it ain't gonna work. I have boating/sailing experience and have read the book.

I'm through with this argument.

You can have it from here on out.

Sail the boat you like.

I was simply trying to point out which boat I would want to be on 500 miles offshore if caught in bad weather and/or the boat I would want to sail should I ever want to sail RTW.
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:23   #157
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Wet is fine as long as I can make it back.

So your ballast is?

You and that other guy didn't read the book did you?

Did I mention I paid $2,000 for my boat? Check out the paint job. See attached.

OCEANIS 36 CC (BENETEAU) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
I don't claim to have the ultimate blue water boat nor do I want or need it, I'm 70 years old now, retired and living dirt based overlooking the Atlantic ICW in sunny Florida. MY Benny is perfectly adequate for our needs now. as an elderly cruising couple We no longer cruise the miles we used to ( around 2000nm plus most years in Europe) in all weathers and I was advised by my lovely lady to give up offshore racing (or forego any further marital rights) many years back, but our current Benny has a lovely Owner's stateroom aft with (non-standard) Queen bed athwartships and appropriate 'mood' lighting We don't need a new paint job yet nor do we expect to do so before we finally give up sailing and sell. I do expect to get a decent price when we do sell regardless as we have a popular make and model in superb condition that offers what most folk want that do not aspire to going high latitude hell on earth type sailing. We still have our tee shirts and fond memories of many landfalls safely made. I will leave any more pi55ing contests to younger models with more hair
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:30   #158
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

Like I said before, there are very few boats especially sailboats that I actually do not like. They are all quite beautiful.

Btw, there was a 70 plus year old leaving the dock tonight on his boat to do the regular Wednesday night race..........I was helping him with his jib. He just now put it back on the furler.

He also just did a bottom job on the boat himself. I think his boat is a 35' Endeavour maybe.

This may be my next one!!!

Yeah, I know, it has a spade rudder and bolt on keel I believe. Ouch! But phrf 123

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1979
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Old 29-04-2015, 18:51   #159
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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I agree...

...............To my astonishment, I've seen all kind of boats that crossed the Pacific. Some were crewed by 70+ year old couples, some much less than 30ft, one with no navigation electronics (laptop computer got wet) except an iPhone. I am now convinced that careful planning and good seamanship are more important than a bluewater boat. If one has a boat that is maintained and manages the sails and steers the boat correctly he should survive any storm, during sailing seasons.

Anyway, I do not know if I am getting my point across. To rephrase, you can all sit there and argue until forever for the right boat. At the same time, some of you are actually out there enjoying our beautiful world with whatever boat they have.

Life is short... Enjoy it while you can.

Now, back to planning my next adventure!

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Very goo post, you did get your point across.

A friend of mine wrote this about his cruise to MX from BC:

I find it really interesting on the whole debate of what makes an offshore sail boat. It is unbelievable how much BS floats around and how many people have opinions but no experience based on the particular boat they happen to have an opinion on. I now believe it matters far more how the boat is prepared than what boat it is. Obviously you need a minimum standard in terms of hull integrity and rig strength and I think the Catalina 34 has that easily. The question is can the boat and crew be prepared for offshore? I believe the answer question lies only with the skipper who does the preparation. In our case, we have had a fairly good shakedown cruise and I rate the boat highly. I've had "experienced" sailors who were aghast that I would take my family with no offshore experience in a Catalina 34 from Vancouver to San Francisco - a nasty bit of coast. And it takes some serious thought to call bull#### and say you're up to the challenge having never sailed in an ocean swell. I've also had experienced sailors who say go to the Marquesas and you'll find a lot of less capable boats than yours crewed by Europeans having the time of their lives. And you'll also find North Americans with real fancy boats with a lot of broken bits waiting for parts.
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Old 29-04-2015, 20:16   #160
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray View Post
I basically know two types of boats: the ones that can still sail in heavy weather, and the ones that can't. If you own one of the latter, your options are severely reduced to say the least.
Some fall in the middle in the sense that they will punch (usually), but won't run: for a start, know what you have got and act accordingly.

What always amazes me is when people claim that the boat should be good enough to "take care of them", and essentially try to subtract themselves from the problem: this is never going to happen.

If the boat can't sail any more, the crew has no reliable control over the angle it assumes with the sea, it takes some speed to maintain course stability. This means that sooner or later the boat will end up beam-on where stability is minimum and exposed hull area is maximum. At this point, it is a matter of probabilities and luck. It only takes one good breaking one on the beam to cause a severe knock-down or worse, damage, injuries etc. Is it that interesting or relevant? Not so much, because that situation should have been avoided in the first place: don't place the boat in a position of least stability with highest risk for a start.
I sailed a 1968 30' Dufour Arpege (4500kg loaded) over 55000NM between Iceland and the Antarctic, Alaska and you-name-it. It got knocked down to various extents (sometimes close to 90 degrees) 7 times in the first 14 months in the Atlantic because each time I thought the sea wasn't big enough (yet) or wasn't going to break. Well it did anyway, it was a small boat and over we went. After that I decided it was time to go about it differently and I kept it upright for the following 6 years. It pulled through waves that would have wiped out a small ship with the sea on the beam. The sea broke right over it, covering it from end to end.
The Arpege was a pretty seaworthy boat or I wouldn't be here. It was highly capable upwind and cautiously, unnervingly ok on the run. It wasn't perfect, but it was a matter of knowing it and sailing it accordingly.

In my books, boats that can't sail any more in high winds and rough seas are bad, dangerous boats, because ultimately the crew runs out of options. The so acclaimed Contessa 32s won't run in true heavy weather: I know of one that pitchpoled and busted everything after running with the whole foredeck underwater and the stern high up in a storm in the southern Indian Ocean. It comes down to hull resistance. The bloody thing can't accelerate. That skipper would have been far better off turning around and facing it: only option left. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, but sometimes we can learn something this way. Cavalier 32s (common in NZ and Australia) are similar, great upwind and unmanageable in following seas. Same for some of the Peterson 40' Admiral's Cup designs of the 1970s.

Some heavy, long-keeled boats with a blunt bow and a pinched stern won't point and won't run in high winds and heavy seas. I don't care how ballasted and what not they are, a yacht sailing and well-handled will outlive them hundred times over in true heavy weather, because it won't get hammered on the beam, picked up by a wave and dumped into a trough.

So I want reasonably low hull resistance, because when there is a vertical wall of breaking water chasing the hull, I don't want to get caught into it. I don't know of any other viable option besides keeping ahead of it until it stops breaking. I also want good course stability in these conditions, because broaching means getting sideways into it and potentially game over.
I want a boat that can point and punch no matter the wind strength. This is not going to happen with a little edifice of canvas, solar panels, wind generator, davits and junk constructed over the stern. Not only the windage is huge in high winds and it ruins the pointing angle, but the weight also regularly trims the boats by the stern, giving them weather helm. Lean and mean with a clean rig are the words for punching into really big stuff to stay in one piece and alive.

Besides this, sure, there are plenty of design factors that result in gains or disadvantages in heavy weather. Flared topsides that readily dig into the water when the hull heels hard over are not too "healthy". When all hell breaks loose, boats do tend to get thrown around at times no matter what.
A reasonably high AVS is desirable, say 130 degrees on a 40' and more on smaller boats. Designs that are fully self-righting on the paper are often pigs in other regards for a range of very good reasons. There is no gain to be found there as far as I am concerned.
For standard cruising without extreme sea conditions, 110-120 degrees (what the ISO standard often delivers) seems to be reasonably adequate as long as the boats are sailed and handled correctly.

An intact and fully inverted boat can be stable for sure: I remember a French cruising yacht that had taken an isolated beam-on hit off Cape Horn, 25 knots of wind and long regular sea, over 20 years ago now and stayed upside down. It came back once it had flooded sufficiently: yacht hulls lose their inverted stability as they gradually fill up, and long before sinking. Now, how often does that happen?

When it comes to designing hull shapes that are able to accelerate if needed, remain course stable at speed and can point into high winds, huge progress has been made in the past 25 years. In terms of heavy weather handling, a well-designed and well built modern ocean cruising yacht is definitely at an advantage (especially on the run) compared to older boats, just like many boats of the late 1960s and 70s are at an advantage punching on the real oldies.

Seaworthiness issues are a mixture of: bad hull shape/design sometimes, "I don't want to sail the thing any more" attitude and nonsensical, unsafe boat "preparation". That rather leaves a lot in the hands of the skipper/owner.
I almost missed this piece of commonsense, well stated commentary in amongst the general 'OMG look what the numbers show' background noise but there you have it, thank you for saying it so well. My favourite of the boats I have owned was my Doug Peterson designed 41 footer that rated One Ton IOR and the original of the class, called 'Legende' was a French Admirals Cup team member and I believe a winner of the SORC circuit darn under. but that was a 1988 boat so maybe Doug Peterson had refined his designs by then because ours sailed like a witch in all weathers, upwind or downwind, a joy to helm and no strain on the autopilot. We once hit well over 20 knots ( the log was set to average the boatspeed over a minute and showed 24.9 kts when I dared glance at it) on a prolonged surf under just a heavily reefed genoa and no mainsail, with the bow wave back by the cockpit. Upwind our optimum performance was 7kts at 28degs to the apparent wind though we could if we wished pinch to 22 degs apparent and still make 6kts.
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Old 29-04-2015, 22:41   #161
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

Followed this thread for a while, until it got tiresome and degenerated into the same basic opinions that all of these seem so do.

Over the last 3-4 years I have seen at least a couple dozen similar threads and a few, like this one, that generated some strong opinions and I see that a pattern has emerged.

There is the group whose opinion is more or less some variation of "to sail blue water you must have a heavy duty, ultimately strong, full keel, attached rudder, double ended, survive the "Perfect Storm" boat" because that perfect storm can rear up and strike at any time, any place, with no warning. The majority (no, certainly not all) of those advocating this are the ones that have read a lot of books, studied the theories and formulas but usually have little experience making ocean passages.

Then there are those that say most reasonably well built boats of any design: full keel, fin keel, modified fin, skeg rudder, spade rudder, moderate or even light displacement, etc, etc, etc are just fine and if well prepared will safely take a reasonably skilled skipper and crew across the oceans. Generally a great many (again no not all) of the sailors with experience crossing oceans fall into this group.

Now if you plan to sail latitude 40 or higher, winter passages, late season offshore south from New England to the Caribbean, messing around the tropics in hurricane season and similar extreme sailing then it would make sense to go for an extreme boat.

Otherwise, get you a decent boat and go sailing.
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Old 29-04-2015, 23:17   #162
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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And what multihull is in the same price range as above mentioned SS34? Not even close I'm afraid, and if there were one it's not for offshore for sure. And I'm not comfortable with stiff
When did price come into this debate. We all know that most multihulls are in a higher price range than a S&S 34 and similarly we all know the seaworthy reputation of both.
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Old 30-04-2015, 00:10   #163
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

This thread has made me laugh so much that I just had to jump on eBay and buy the book.
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Old 30-04-2015, 03:07   #164
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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When did price come into this debate. We all know that most multihulls are in a higher price range than a S&S 34 and similarly we all know the seaworthy reputation of both.
Now.. and so did size, and whatever. How about you comparing a micro cruiser to brand new Swan? Or smallest Wharram to biggest of Schionnings? No point, which basicly is the same as what you said earlier
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Old 30-04-2015, 04:44   #165
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Re: Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Followed this thread for a while, until it got tiresome and degenerated into the same basic opinions that all of these seem so do.

Over the last 3-4 years I have seen at least a couple dozen similar threads and a few, like this one, that generated some strong opinions and I see that a pattern has emerged.

There is the group whose opinion is more or less some variation of "to sail blue water you must have a heavy duty, ultimately strong, full keel, attached rudder, double ended, survive the "Perfect Storm" boat" because that perfect storm can rear up and strike at any time, any place, with no warning. The majority (no, certainly not all) of those advocating this are the ones that have read a lot of books, studied the theories and formulas but usually have little experience making ocean passages.

Then there are those that say most reasonably well built boats of any design: full keel, fin keel, modified fin, skeg rudder, spade rudder, moderate or even light displacement, etc, etc, etc are just fine and if well prepared will safely take a reasonably skilled skipper and crew across the oceans. Generally a great many (again no not all) of the sailors with experience crossing oceans fall into this group.

Now if you plan to sail latitude 40 or higher, winter passages, late season offshore south from New England to the Caribbean, messing around the tropics in hurricane season and similar extreme sailing then it would make sense to go for an extreme boat.

Otherwise, get you a decent boat and go sailing.
None of us sailors that have read the book etc but don't have long distance cruising experience have said you can't cross oceans etc in decent boats be they fin keel, spade rudder or what have you.

We are simply pointing out the more seaworthy features of some of the older designs such as the S&S 34 and the Swan 36.

The problem for some of us with this long distance voyaging thing is the sheer boredom. Long slow days many times on the same tack.

Just crossing the 18 miles of open bay here on a monohull can get quite slow unless the weather kicks up a bit then you can try out some things with your boat.

These old heavy boats don't really wakeup much until the small craft advisories are posted which is when many boats either do not come out or head to the marina.
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