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Old 08-05-2015, 07:46   #16
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post

Personally in this size range I would choose the mono because all the small cats I've seen look like a floating box. Just my opinion and I'm sure others won't agree. However part of boating I think for almost all of us is the emotional connection with the boat.

Now once you get up to 50' or so I think a cat can look sexy but that's beyond my budget.
You think this lacks sex appeal and is boxy?

(Im not a Prout lover. This design though redeemed them)


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Old 08-05-2015, 07:46   #17
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

Duke, you say you're focusing in space. We've lived full time on 2 under 40' cats. A cruising couple with a dog, at anchor, marina and at sea. The space is ridiculous. I'm sitting in a cockpit that comfortably sits 10 by myself. The port hull is empty. There's no cupboards overfilled. And half the deck lockers are empty. We have a ton of toys ( probably literally) like surf gear, kite gear, scuba, inflatable kayaks and sups, guitars and keyboard etc etc. I'd say the same size mono would also have enough space for us and our toys. The reason we sail a cat really has nothing to do with space. For you that might be different. Personally I think around 36' would be the minimum length I'd be comfortable with sailing around the world on either a cat or mono and both would have more than enough space and comforts onboard for us, but that's just me. Many couples and families have done it on much smaller and bigger boats. For you it would be useful, considering you have a 5yr plan, to make some lists. Where you want to sail, what you want to have on board, how many people on board, safety and other equipment, time spent at anchor, time in marinas, time off the boat, buying budget, sailing budget, after sailing budget etc etc. those lists should be detailed with size, weight, cost, location on board etc and will help you select a yacht that will suit you..
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:22   #18
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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You say they're "in fashion" likes it's a passing fad. My prediction is cats will stay in fashion forever.

They may in fact, mono's may well go the way of the wooden boat and for similar reasons. I don't think so as Cats are not a new design, they have been around for quite awhile, but maybe mono's have held on more as a nostalgia thing than anything else. Time will tell.
But modern manufacturing techniques and materials do in fact make the newer Cats, not your Grandfathers Cat, so maybe your right.
I do believe as time goes on, there will be more and more Cats, and facilities will become more and more available to them, especially newer facilities.

I said it's not meant as a detriment, just know that anything you buy that is at the height of being fashionable, your going to pay a premium for, and if it's still at the height of fashion when you go to sell, you will get a premium for it in re-sale. But if it's not, then maybe you won't.

Of course to be honest, I was never in the market for a new boat anyway, and if I were I'm sure my attitudes and beliefs would be different.

Boats are a depreciating asset, well most are anyway, so while I started looking at newer boats first, I gradually began to look at older boats. One discovery I made was that it seemed to me that the more modern manufacturing techniques and materials don't age as well.

But the question is, why a Mono? I think the answer is in most instances that most people that bought a mono as opposed to a Cat did so based on the belief that for the same money, they got more or a better value in a mono.
Has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority of one design over the other.
The issue of slip availability, haul outs etc. is there, but in my opinion secondary to financial concerns.

I think this has been hashed out about as much as the "Blue Water" argument, just most don't want to admit I think that finances play a large part in boat selection
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:37   #19
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Sigh.

Go get your 45 foot mono in 5 years. Im sure the person who has a 40 foot catamaran wont mind. He may have paid a little more for his 2 hulls but not once will he have compared it to a mono except in passing. He or she bought a catamaran because...... well they like a catamaran. They probably thought it met their cruising criterion and like the width and the length and the space and motion and the stability and the ease of use plus a million other reasons.
I think it's as simple as that. This thread will go on for pages until it drowns in it's own vitriol, but for all practical purposes it could end with this paragraph.
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:38   #20
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

These cat vs mono seem to always forget the obvious choice of a trimaran.
Is NEEL the only new production trimaran ?
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:43   #21
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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You think this lacks sex appeal and is boxy?

(Im not a Prout lover. This design though redeemed them)


No not like some of the thirty foot or so cats, but looking at the low profile and the length of the Prout I would speculate that the boat would be very short on headroom (pun intended).

From my admittedly limited experience with cats the combination of sleeker profile and reasonable headroom starts at about 40' but the bigger the better.

Cats of course sail level and are without a doubt more comfortable in moderate seas but again based on my limited experience, as the seas build past a certain point or when trying to beat into a stiff breeze I find the motion of cats less comfortable than monos.
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:58   #22
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post

Cats of course sail level and are without a doubt more comfortable in moderate seas but again based on my limited experience, as the seas build past a certain point or when trying to beat into a stiff breeze I find the motion of cats less comfortable than monos.
Ive been with a few people that express the same opinion. Having sailed on a few Cats in heavy weather, The experienced Cat skippers turn off the track a degree or two and finds the best line for comfort. No doubt about it, the motion is different. On the smaller Cats, a wrong line will hobbyhorse the vessel, but a deviation to one side or other or sail adjustment soon makes it behave.

Like everything else, it needs experience and a little persistence.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:20   #23
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

I sail, and liveaboard, a mono. Why? Because that's the style of vessel I prefer. I'm also about the only sailor I know who actually enjoys beating to windward as the boat feels alive on that point of sail, reaching and running just feel well flat.

I have shed loads of room, comfy cabins, 2 heads, stowage everywhere and seaviews from every window.

Do I hate cats? No, I've sailed on them and I can see why some people like them but they are not the boat for me or my type of sailing.

Trying to compare Monos to Cats is like trying to compare Apples and Bananas. Both are fruit, both offer nutritional advantages over the other but some people hate bananas.

This all said I could be seriously tempted by the Dragonfly 28 Sport Trimaran if I were back in the market. That looks a sweet, and fast, little boat without the width of a cat as you can tuck the pontoons inboard when it comes time to dock.

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Old 08-05-2015, 09:38   #24
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
These cat vs mono seem to always forget the obvious choice of a trimaran.
Is NEEL the only new production trimaran ?
Don't forget Dragonfly and Corsair. Is Farrier still making tris? And there is that brand new Rapido 60 currently in production.

Edit: I see Farrier has subbed out the F-33 tri and the F-45 cat to an outfit in the Philippines.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:40   #25
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

I think if your cruising means are modest, then $ for $ the given advantages of a cat diminish rather quickly. If you took for instance a mono in the range of 32 ft or so, and we would all be aware that many a sailor has transited oceans on vessels in this class. The $ comparable cat is near minuscule, and suitable ocean capable types are rare to non existent.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:51   #26
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

I generally prefer space layout on a mono.

On a cat, it is like living on a balcony and in two coffins. Some new cats do much better than many old ones in this respect: topside windows added, beamier hulls, etc.

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Old 08-05-2015, 09:54   #27
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Yeah yeah, its been beat to death and usually the cat folks have much longer lists as to why they are better. But consider...the most typical mono is under 50 feet and arguably 45 feet. So if you are a person who cannot afford more than 45 feet, what would your comparative cat be for the price and size? As for size, lets say a new 45' mono is about 600 interior square feet. Comparably, I estimate that is something like 35-37' cat.
This is right down my alley. I've been to lots of boat shows at this point, and I'm a bit obsessive with comparing usable space between new boats.

A think a 45 foot mono has about the same usable space as a 38-39 foot catamaran. I say "usable" because a lot of the cat's extra space is empty air between the hulls, often filled with a trampoline. That's mostly for lounging or a place to put the dinghy. So it's useful, but not as useful as a living area.

For example, an Oceanis 45 has a heck of a lot more interior room and storage space than a 35-36 foot Cat like the Gemini 105, the Gemini Legacy, or the Mahe 36. It also has a deep sail locker. On the other hand, headroom in the mono is actually not as good because one or two of the aft cabins are under the cockpit. Also, the cat also has more decent space to put solar panels.

I would put a 45 foot mono closer in living space to a cat like the Lagoon 380. Sail Magazine had an interesting article a few years back called "One hull or two" and tested the Beneteau 373 vs. the Gemini 105. They felt those boats were close in size (the test was pretty even overall).

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned here is weight. Regardless of storage space, the mono can carry more weight without suffering performance, so it's not all about volume.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:20   #28
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

Most everything I had to say got said except for one area. The comment about cats being designed for charter. If that means more staterooms...ok...its true. However, most cruisers reconfigure a bit. I have seen one cabin converted to a work room, another to an enormous pantry. So I suppose it depends on how you wish to envision the space. I have a large pantry and a sizeable area across from the nav table to work on stuff. Aft cabins are storage. We don't get a lot of sleepover guests. If we do we will free up an aft cabin. I don't think how the boat is set up in the beginning of the cruise looks much like the set up when the boat comes home. For me its about flexibility.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:30   #29
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Yeah yeah, its been beat to death and usually the cat folks have much longer lists as to why they are better. But consider...the most typical mono is under 50 feet and arguably 45 feet. So if you are a person who cannot afford more than 45 feet, what would your comparative cat be for the price and size? As for size, lets say a new 45' mono is about 600 interior square feet. Comparably, I estimate that is something like 35-37' cat. Comparing the two (considering generally new boas)

1. Tons more options on the mono side...on the cat side you are talking a Gemini and maybe a mahe. That is it. Monos there are options galore to choose from.
2. Salon probably the same size in general.
3. Headroom way, way better on the mono.
4. Staterooms on the mono have width, probably slightly wider berths too.
5. Even if you say, no, 45' mono is like a 38-40' cat, I would say, the cats are so focused on the charter trade they try to squeeze in 3-4 heads and 3- 4 berths...wasted space for a typical cruising couple.
6. OK to the cockpit will be better in the cat right? Probably...though new monos are so fat nowadays, I am not so sure the cat's cockpit is so, s much better.

Thoughts? Yes I am focusing on space here, not sailing characteristics. I am a cat fan...but in looking to buy in 5+ years I am coming to find that if given the choice between a 45 mono and a 36 cat...I think the mono is quite competitive.
Interior space on a 45' mono is likely closer to 350 square feet although some of the newer wide beam square aft monos push the value higher.

There is probably a minimum interior space each of us needs to feel comfortable.

My wife and I find our Liberty 458 with approx 350 square feet inside to be cosy and ideal for us two. Interior storage, we have 111 lockers, and a large flat aft deck behind the center cockpit both add to the livability. The tradeoff is our cockpit is seaworthy but small. Again ideal for two.

A charter spec cat isn't the ideal for liveaboard. The smaller cats will have narrow hulls and can be sensitive to load.

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Old 08-05-2015, 10:40   #30
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

As someone who has gone from mono to catamaran(Endeavour 30) back to mono( Island Packet 45) on which I subsequently circumnavigated on from 1997-2002 feel complled to jump in. Since January 2011 I am full time cruising again on the same monohull that I have owned for 19 years and I have never regretted selling the catamaran but have probably watched cats a little more closely than others in that time and come up with some personal observations.
1. Cruising cats almost never perform as designed or owners expected as they usually end up overloaded with "necessary" gear.
2. Usually if you see a cruising cat going to windward one engine is running as "had to charge batteries anyway"
3. Cats may not heel but doesn't mean more comfortable. The jerky motion can make many people or animals uncomfortable. Last sail on my cat ex, daughter, family cat & Labrador retriever were all seasick in 1-3 seas and 10 knots of wind.
4. After number of drinks owner will usually admit his cruising cat is NOT fun to sail in many conditions but spouse happier than heeling. Chartered a 40 cat in Belize years ago with my brother-in-law who is racer/cruiser who wanted to know beforehand what it would be like. Let him find out on is own and after 30 min. was done driving for the trip stating "it's like driving a house".
5. Negative comments to cruising cat owners are usally met with "you didn't buy &/or sail the right cat".
6. Few will return at sunset to their anchored cat and be struck by how beautiful your vessel looks.
7. Few cat owners realize that for storm conditions can NOT heave to or lie ahull so left with running of with drogues or using a parachute sea anchor with the requires rode that few have acquired.
8. Monohulls have much wider range where comfortable & fun to sail. Depending on point of sail can enjoy 5-40+ knots whereas cat less than 12 didn't feel much motion and over 20 unless off the wind seas frequently made for uncomfortable, noisy ride.
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