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Old 29-05-2015, 06:43   #151
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

Cats are cool machines for cruisers, the newer ones are huge and extremely roomy, they are far from speed demons but do move a lot of living space around at approx mono hull speeds. Not terribly exciting to sail but for that very reason they attract new sailors that probably would never have chosen a mono hull "because they are tippy"
The new flat bottom Mono's are bigger than ever before as well and can offer many of the same huge spaces that Cats do. Seems like a win win as there is something for everyone these days . the best part is that because of the lighter and cheaper build methods both Cats and Mono's have never been more affordable, great time for buying new boats.
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Old 29-05-2015, 14:36   #152
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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the best part is that because of the lighter and cheaper build methods both Cats and Mono's have never been more affordable, great time for buying new boats.
Especially if you are not very concerned about the longevity and integrity of the structures!

"Lighter and cheaper" = better???

And this goes for both monohulls and catamarans.

Jim
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Old 29-05-2015, 16:07   #153
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
"Lighter and cheaper" = better???
It depends on how those attributes are achieved
If it through improved technology, then yes.

(Many manufactured objects are much lighter, cheaper and better than they were in the past as a result of technology)
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Old 29-05-2015, 23:06   #154
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Especially if you are not very concerned about the longevity and integrity of the structures!

"Lighter and cheaper" = better???

And this goes for both monohulls and catamarans.

Jim
materials technology and composite design have moved considerably over 40-50 years. At first structures were vastly overbuilt because the limits and safety factors were not properly understood
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Old 30-05-2015, 04:23   #155
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
It depends on how those attributes are achieved
If it through improved technology, then yes.

(Many manufactured objects are much lighter, cheaper and better than they were in the past as a result of technology)
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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
materials technology and composite design have moved considerably over 40-50 years. At first structures were vastly overbuilt because the limits and safety factors were not properly understood
My somewhat critical thoughts on "lighter and cheaper" were stimulated by the severe criticisms of some current designs with bonded liners/grids/etc that have been posted by our resident shipwright experts. And of course the well documented failures that we have discussed ad nauseum here on CF have added to my skepticism of the "L&C" designs.

I am well aware of the advances of material and design methods that are available, and I recognize that when these are well applied wonderful boats can emerge. These vessels meet the "light" criteria but not the "cheap" one.

Jim
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Old 30-05-2015, 04:32   #156
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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I am well aware of the advances of material and design methods that are available, and I recognize that when these are well applied wonderful boats can emerge. These vessels meet the "light" criteria but not the "cheap" one.

Jim
it is more likely, we simply couldn't afford traditional builds
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Old 30-05-2015, 04:52   #157
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

it's not just materials technology that has improved or changed in the last 40-50 years but also manufacturing technology and techniques.

Who would have thought we could "glue" a car chassis together for example? (Lotus Elise if you are wondering) Or use lasers to weld steel so accurately you increase the strength and rigidity without increasing weight? (BWM) Or make a TV screen that was not only flat but curved? (Samsung)

Many modern yachts have their GRP hulls made by robots that make it to an incredible tolerance again and again and again and faster than a human could ever do it. These hulls are no less strong than their human made counterparts but cost a fraction of the price. Extruded aluminium masts made in a single piece, deck fittings forged from a solid lump of metal, marine plywood interiors cut to shape by machines. All these and other techniques have brought down the cost without compromising quality or strength.

Yes sure you get a damn fine boat if you can afford a Moody or a Swan, built by hand by craftsmen but not everyone can afford that level of craftsmanship. It is a little like the difference between a Rolls Royce and a Ford Mondeo. Both are great cars but many more people drive Fords than Rollers.

Back to the original question of "Why a Mono?" Less boat to clean! Having just spent hours scrubbing my deck and thinking "if this were a cat I'd have 50% more to clean and acres more windows!!"

Keiron
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Old 30-05-2015, 05:31   #158
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Especially if you are not very concerned about the longevity and integrity of the structures!

"Lighter and cheaper" = better???

And this goes for both monohulls and catamarans.

Jim
It's easy to build a boat that's light, cheap and better, BUT you can only pick two of the three options.
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Old 30-05-2015, 05:31   #159
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Spend some time on both to see what you like. Also depends on budget. If limited budget then go for a monohull.

Kind of like asking people their favorite cooler. Different answers are not wrong.

Personally I enjoy both for different reasons. Coming from mono I miss the "in the groove" sailing feel. For heavy weather sailing I prefer mono. Cats have a much larger platform and generally more pleasant at anchor. If budget were no issue I would pick a mono for high latitudes or a cat for tropics.

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A tri gives the best of both worlds...the "in the groove" sailing feel, stability for upright comfort, and better performance all-round. Most tris also have deep centerboard or daggerboard and close-sheeting capabilities, so they can perform well to windward.

I also think it's a huge mistake to lump all boats of each hull configuration together. A condomaran such as a Lagoon or FP is very different from a racing cat, and there are performance cruisers in the middle (e.g. Gunboat or Chris White designed cats). Different strokes for different folks. People who don't appreciate the compromises and trade-offs are ignorant, or they're just taking sides (ignoring others) to justify an opinion or preference that they've already formed. All types of boats in seaworthy condition have attributes worthy of appreciation.
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Old 30-05-2015, 06:11   #160
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

i would agree- having seen a Neel tri in action, that is really the boat that makes this mono owner drool. Slight heel for sailng groove and feel and to keep sails filled in light air, eye popping speed, central CB, only 1 powerplant to maintain, cavernous "cellar" in main hull, and large accomodations. A bit of an odd styled interior but that's okay.


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Old 30-05-2015, 06:15   #161
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
A tri gives the best of both worlds...the "in the groove" sailing feel, stability for upright comfort, and better performance all-round. Most tris also have deep centerboard or daggerboard and close-sheeting capabilities, so they can perform well to windward.

I also think it's a huge mistake to lump all boats of each hull configuration together. A condomaran such as a Lagoon or FP is very different from a racing cat, and there are performance cruisers in the middle (e.g. Gunboat or Chris White designed cats). Different strokes for different folks. People who don't appreciate the compromises and trade-offs are ignorant, or they're just taking sides (ignoring others) to justify an opinion or preference that they've already formed. All types of boats in seaworthy condition have attributes worthy of appreciation.
I would agree that a Tri answers a lot of the problems presented. The only issue I have is Space vs cost. For a cruiser with a family, there is only the Neel really, and some aspects of the Neel dont meet my requirements, starting with cost. I love Tri's but am not a racer. Some of the lovely smaller Tri's are a very wet ride and have limited accommodation. However as stated, I am constrained by my wallet to purchase a Neel. But I would have one in a heartbeat.

Maybe now, some of the production Cat makers will divert their attention towards Tri's and make an effort.
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Old 30-05-2015, 06:47   #162
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

I don't think tris will ever be "mainstream ". You cited cost, which is also an issue of cats, and also space. For a given length you get less interior room than a mono, and higher cost and build complexity. The value equation just isn't there to enable mainstream popularity.

Also, to keep performance high you need to keep it light. That implies higher quality control in production, more expensive high strength-per-weight materials, and lighter design/build. If you load it up with gear and large tanks for cruising you lose much of the sailing performance that justifies the other design decisions.

My Dragonfly 1200 is built as a performance cruiser, and although it's faster than most monos under most circumstances it's cabin is not as roomy nor can it carry the same loads. Some of the room is made up in the amas for carrying bulky light things like specialty sails and fenders, fender boards, or garbage and dirty laundry. I'm well aware of the compromises and trade-offs.

However I enjoy near-level, faster sailing and much less movement at anchor. On a reach with standard Genoa we cruise above 10 knots in under 15 knots of wind with less than 5 degrees of heel. That's hard to give up.
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Old 30-05-2015, 06:57   #163
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

One thing to think about is that for people who cruise or vacation-cruise, most time is spent at anchor.

The sunset is as beautiful from a rowboat as from a luxury yacht, and it doesn't matter how many hulls. I hope we can all agree about that.
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Old 30-05-2015, 06:58   #164
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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One thing to think about is that for people who cruise or vacation-cruise, most time is spent at anchor.

The sunset is as beautiful from a rowboat as from a luxury yacht, and it doesn't matter how many hulls. I hope we can all agree about that.
The view is wonderful from any vessel. Only a multi is far more stable to enjoy it.

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Old 30-05-2015, 07:11   #165
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

That's true, and the fact that cats don't roll as much isn't cat specific either. Some monos roll much less at anchor than others. Often I see a bay full of anchored yachts and one yacht (usually a traditional steel, full keel design) will be rolling through 20 degrees while the others are rolling much less. Anyway a bit of rolling at anchor just makes you feel more at sea. We love to visit friends on traditional monos, have fun playing catch with the dinner plates and condiments sliding back and forth on the dinner table and enjoy the traditional and cozy dark wood interiors. Being able to find a fairly protected anchorage usually isn't that difficult either, definitely not hard in the Caribbean.
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