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Old 28-05-2015, 19:11   #136
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

While out walking my son in his stroller I thought of a good way to illustrate the cat vs mono debate.

Drink 4 bottles of wine, then fill your kitchen sink with water. Then make a cat and a mono.

To make the cat, take two of the corks and glue toothpicks in between them to represent the Akas on a cat. Then add Saran wrap in between the hulls to represent the vast living area.

Now. Make a mono. Glue the other two corks together end to end. Then screw two heavy woodscrews into the bottom. The cat doesn't need these as it is inherently stable without ballast.

Conduct the following experiments:

Put both boats in the water and swish the water around with your fingers to create wavelets. I would wager the cat would have a jerkier motion then the heavier mono.

Now. Blow on the surface of the water, observe which boat moves faster. The cat. Less boat in the water= less friction.

Now, observe construction techniques. Which one is stronger? Well obviously the mono. However, a sa manufacturer we love all the space on the cat- and the speed. Is there a solution? Yes, scrap the gorilla glue, and buy west system epoxy- now the cost has gone up, but it's as strong as the gorilla glued mono.

Different designs with different advantages.

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Old 28-05-2015, 19:25   #137
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

Having no prior experience with either a mono or a cat prior to buying a cat, I'm so glad we did after seeing how the mono's behave at anchor - it looks absolutely horrible and I don't know how owners deal with it. They whip back and forth - and so do cats - but when they whip, they lean way to one side...then they whip back...and lean way to the other side. We will also whip and won't even hardly know we are moving unless we look out the window. Also, I thought only cats didn't like to beat into the seas and wind...but we've stayed in contact with a bunch of cruisers that have all been traveling down the Thorny Path...and listening to the mono guys makes me almost think we beat into it better than they do...they hated it too and they hobby-horse too...but they also rock horribly back and forth while hobby-horsing...adds a new dimension of misery. But the big reason to go with a cat is redundancy!! When you realize that you have to motor past these breakers that led into the anchorage...now you have to motor past them to get out....and what if because the violent wave action that is at a lot of openings that go to calm anchorages...you stir up the sediment in your fuel tank (happened to us) and you lose your engine at the most crucial time ever..in a cat, you keep on moving because the likelihood of both clogging at the same time is unlikely. But now imagine you only have 1 engine to begin with....now you are on the rocks. I'll stick with a cat so I can sleep at night.
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Old 28-05-2015, 20:07   #138
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

This is an interesting thread. It appears obvious that most of the posters have firm beliefs in which style vessel is best.

I believe it depends on your budget, where you plan to berth your vessel, number of guest you routinely sail with and the speed you like to sail...In our case our vessel stays in a slip that is not charged for the additional beam of the sailboat. We sail on the weekend with up to a dozen friends. We like to go fast..(relatively)

We took a 150 mile trip over the Memorial Day weekend to attend the Spring Fling in Port Arthur Texas. It was blowing on the gulf coast this weekend and we had a great sail. We sailed at an average speed of 8 to 10 knots (top speed was 12 knots) and heeled very little while entertaining our guest with drinks and great meals. At berth our mono hull neighbors in the adjacent slips rocked wildly in a storm while we hardly moved.

Having owned both mono hull sailboats and most recently a catamaran, for me its not even close, I love my cat!

In the interest of full disclosure, I had this opinion before reading this thread.....
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Old 28-05-2015, 20:09   #139
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

Jt I'm just basing my comments on my own observations, not to debate cats against monos. I've spent ample time on both to have my own thoughts on both. As far as upwind performance, I have no complaints about the Lagoon 380 or Lagoon 400 upwind, but a picture is worth 1000 words..
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Old 28-05-2015, 20:25   #140
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

As far as upwind performance, my mono sucks. Like really sucks. Rig design is rig design. Lateral resistance is lateral resistance, it will vary massively from one boat to the next, mono or cat.

I think the mono vs cat debate should be about one hull or two. Comparing an America's cup cat vs hunter 33, or a vendee globe mono vs a Gemini or Iroquois won't get any one anywhere.


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Old 29-05-2015, 00:53   #141
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
While out walking my son in his stroller I thought of a good way to illustrate the cat vs mono debate.

Drink 4 bottles of wine, then fill your kitchen sink with water. Then make a cat and a mono.

To make the cat, take two of the corks and glue toothpicks in between them to represent the Akas on a cat. Then add Saran wrap in between the hulls to represent the vast living area.

Now. Make a mono. Glue the other two corks together end to end. Then screw two heavy woodscrews into the bottom. The cat doesn't need these as it is inherently stable without ballast.

Conduct the following experiments:

Put both boats in the water and swish the water around with your fingers to create wavelets. I would wager the cat would have a jerkier motion then the heavier mono. And the cat returns to comfortable motion sooner once your waves settle down. The mono keeps rocking long after the waves subside. In an anchorage this means when the jerk races thru throwing a wake, you get one or two jerks in the cat and you are back to normal. The mono wobbles for a few minutes. Your typical cruiser will spend far more time at anchor than under sail. Also, the cat can move over to the second sink that is much shallower and isn't impacted by the waves you made in the deep sink.

Now. Blow on the surface of the water, observe which boat moves faster. The cat. Less boat in the water= less friction.

Now, observe construction techniques. Which one is stronger? Well obviously the mono. However, a sa manufacturer we love all the space on the cat- and the speed. Is there a solution? Yes, scrap the gorilla glue, and buy west system epoxy- now the cost has gone up, but it's as strong as the gorilla glued mono. If cats were breaking up left and right, this would be a valuable consideration. I don't recall the last time I heard of a cat splitting in two.

Different designs with different advantages.

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Just some thoughts.
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Old 29-05-2015, 02:45   #142
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
The perceived jerkiness isn't a matter of perception. Cats are lighter displacement/length and much lighter displacement/living area. The result is, the boat is more affected by surface action, especially chop, wavelets, breaking seas etc.

A heavy mono will sit much deeper in the water and is stabilised by contact with the more stable subsurface water.
Of course, there are advantages to that light displacement/length- like speed and space, but the disadvantage of sitting on top of the water, instead of in the water is very real as well.
+1

On a cat, the bows and sterns of each hull are generally sitting on different wave heights and experiencing rising and falling at different times and the bows tend to dip into waves and lift independently. This causes the "jiggling" motion.

It is a completely different feel to the heeling and pitching of a monohull.
It's neither better nor worse, just different because of the geometry.
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Old 29-05-2015, 04:23   #143
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Just some thoughts.
I didn't say cats are breaking up left right and center, I said more expensive construction techinques and materials are required to achieve the same level of strength.

For the record though, I have seen cats start to tear themselves apart after working at sea.

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Old 29-05-2015, 04:45   #144
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by Catamoron View Post
Having no prior experience with either a mono or a cat prior to buying a cat, I'm so glad we did after seeing how the mono's behave at anchor - it looks absolutely horrible and I don't know how owners deal with it. They whip back and forth - and so do cats - but when they whip, they lean way to one side...then they whip back...and lean way to the other side. We will also whip and won't even hardly know we are moving unless we look out the window. Also, I thought only cats didn't like to beat into the seas and wind...but we've stayed in contact with a bunch of cruisers that have all been traveling down the Thorny Path...and listening to the mono guys makes me almost think we beat into it better than they do...they hated it too and they hobby-horse too...but they also rock horribly back and forth while hobby-horsing...adds a new dimension of misery. But the big reason to go with a cat is redundancy!! When you realize that you have to motor past these breakers that led into the anchorage...now you have to motor past them to get out....and what if because the violent wave action that is at a lot of openings that go to calm anchorages...you stir up the sediment in your fuel tank (happened to us) and you lose your engine at the most crucial time ever..in a cat, you keep on moving because the likelihood of both clogging at the same time is unlikely. But now imagine you only have 1 engine to begin with....now you are on the rocks. I'll stick with a cat so I can sleep at night.
Having two engines to purchase and maintain is one way to in$ure against stirred up sediment in your tank causing you to lose your boat on a lee shore. Having dual, parallel Racors and plenty of spare filters on hand is another way and costs about 1/100th as many $$$.


Light, relatively flat bottom mono's try to stay parallel to the surface of the water, just like a cat, and do move around a lot. Heavier, deeper draft, traditional cruising hulls do not.
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Old 29-05-2015, 04:56   #145
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I didn't say cats are breaking up left right and center, I said more expensive construction techinques and materials are required to achieve the same level of strength.

For the record though, I have seen cats start to tear themselves apart after working at sea.

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I think it was the summer of '97 or '98 when I met a liveaboard cruiser in Florida who had just returned to the US from Guam, where he and his boat had survived a severe typhoon at anchor, during which he looked up and saw a large catamaran flying overhead!

Obviously not a frequent happening, but does illustrate the advantages of being in the water rather than just floating on top of it.
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Old 29-05-2015, 05:21   #146
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
Having two engines to purchase and maintain is one way to in$ure against stirred up sediment in your tank causing you to lose your boat on a lee shore. Having dual, parallel Racors and plenty of spare filters on hand is another way and costs about 1/100th as many $$$.


Light, relatively flat bottom mono's try to stay parallel to the surface of the water, just like a cat, and do move around a lot. Heavier, deeper draft, traditional cruising hulls do not.
I was thinking about making this very point about modern production boats in my illustration.

Light modern skinny keeled boats definitely behave more like a cat then a heavy displacement boat.

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Old 29-05-2015, 05:39   #147
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

Obviously not a frequent happening, but does illustrate the advantages of being in the water rather than just floating on top of it.[/QUOTE]

Much of a beamy monohull's draft is keel. The hull might be more "on top" of the water than a similarly sized (whatever that means) cat.
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Old 29-05-2015, 05:40   #148
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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I think it was the summer of '97 or '98 when I met a liveaboard cruiser in Florida who had just returned to the US from Guam, where he and his boat had survived a severe typhoon at anchor, during which he looked up and saw a large catamaran flying overhead!

Obviously not a frequent happening, but does illustrate the advantages of being in the water rather than just floating on top of it.
Sigh.

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Old 29-05-2015, 05:49   #149
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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I think it was the summer of '97 or '98 when I met a liveaboard cruiser in Florida who had just returned to the US from Guam, where he and his boat had survived a severe typhoon at anchor, during which he looked up and saw a large catamaran flying overhead!.
"Raining cats and dogs." At least we've got the "cats" parts figured out.
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Old 29-05-2015, 05:50   #150
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Re: Cats vs Mono..why a mono

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"Raining cats and dogs." At least we've got the "cats" parts figured out.
Im pretty sure the dogs are incoming
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