Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

[robert sailor]

To begin with I completely agree with others who suggest that not all production boats including racer/cruisers are built the same or are as robust. The early Benni Firsts from the 80's were stick built boats, built the way you should build an offshore racer, stick built and strong hulls with no full liners. A proper keel stub (not just bolted to the hull) that will likely never fail. Earlier Jeanneau's were built in a similar way and with some mods make good offshore cruisers. I think the race to the bottom was started by Bavaria and everyone else started cutting quality and pricing to complete.

Polux,
I do agree with you that many race boats are built very well and often stronger than cruisers BUT the production boat builders are not the ones doing it. There is nothing high tech about anything they build, they use the cheapest materials and employ methods that use the least amount of labor to produce their product and why wouldn't they. They don't use carbon fibre in hulls/masts etc. and you will never hear of a titanium part being used. Their boats are built with polyester FG and S/S, cheap brass thru hulls and they are basically glued together so they can be build cheap and fast. If for any reason that glue joint is ever compromised in the liners the whole boat can fail in tough conditions. So yes the pure racers are often built to a standard that exceeds production boats but its getting easier to make that statement these days.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I do agree with you that many race boats are built very well and often stronger than cruisers BUT the production boat builders are not the ones doing it. There is nothing high tech about anything they build, they use the cheapest materials and employ methods that use the least amount of labor to produce their product and why wouldn't they. They don't use carbon fibre in hulls/masts etc. and you will never hear of a titanium part being used. Their boats are built with polyester FG and S/S, cheap brass thru hulls and they are basically glued together so they can be build cheap and fast. If for any reason that glue joint is ever compromised in the liners the whole boat can fail in tough conditions. So yes the pure racers are often built to a standard that exceeds production boats but its getting easier to make that statement these days.

Perhaps you could advance some reasonable statistical evidence to support your claims. Because right now your comments merely are a private opinion.

Simply pointing at one or two rudders or keel failures ( in completely unknown or compromised circumstances), oesn't validate anything either

Given the significant growth in sailboat sales post 2000 and significantly increased usage, where is there any evidence that modern vessels are significantly inferior. Merely quoting things like " stick built " to imply quality is simply not backed by any evidence. You repeatedly mention "glue " as if these things are put together with.Bostik , yet structural adhesives are virtually holding modern buildings together

Merely because automation and modern manufacturing methods are being deployed by large builders, does not validate your argument either.



Dave

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

To begin with I completely agree with others who suggest that not all production boats including racer/cruisers are built the same or are as robust. The early Benni Firsts from the 80's were stick built boats, built the way you should build an offshore racer, stick built and strong hulls with no full liners. A proper keel stub (not just bolted to the hull) that will likely never fail. Earlier Jeanneau's were built in a similar way and with some mods make good offshore cruisers. I think the race to the bottom was started by Bavaria and everyone else started cutting quality and pricing to complete.

Polux,
I do agree with you that many race boats are built very well and often stronger than cruisers BUT the production boat builders are not the ones doing it. There is nothing high tech about anything they build, they use the cheapest materials and employ methods that use the least amount of labor to produce their product and why wouldn't they. They don't use carbon fibre in hulls/masts etc. and you will never hear of a titanium part being used. Their boats are built with polyester FG and S/S, cheap brass thru hulls and they are basically glued together so they can be build cheap and fast. If for any reason that glue joint is ever compromised in the liners the whole boat can fail in tough conditions. So yes the pure racers are often built to a standard that exceeds production boats but its getting easier to make that statement these days.

I have visited some brand shipyards and I know the difference. Take for instance Salona, that is not much more expensive than a First: Water tight frontal and aft bulkheads, all bulkheads glassed to the hull, a big stainless steel frame were the keel is bolted as well as the rig. They use well vacuum infusion on all boats. As an option you can have it built in epoxy (stronger), lead keel and carbon/basalt bulkheads as well as carbon spars and rod rigging. Of course, as all boats they are built for a price but you say they are badly built because you just don't know, didn't saw them, didn't visit the shipyard.

Dehler or Arcona are not built in different way and offer basically the same options.

There is a big difference between this production type of boats build and a Beneteau Oceanis in what regards strength. They need to be stronger because they are designed to meet demands an Oceanis is not. Not very different from your example between Aerobatic planes and normal planes.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

I have visited some brand shipyards and I know the difference. Take for instance Salona, that is not much more expensive than a First: Water tight frontal and aft bulkheads, all bulkheads glassed to the hull, a big stainless steel frame were the keel is bolted as well as the rig. They use well vacuum infusion on all boats. As an option you can have it built in epoxy (stronger), lead keel and carbon/basalt bulkheads as well as carbon spars and rod rigging. Of course, as all boats they are built for a price but you say they are badly built because you just don't know, didn't saw them, didn't visit the shipyard.

Dehler or Arcona are not built in different way and offer basically the same options.

There is a big difference between this production type of boats build and a Beneteau Oceanis in what regards strength. They need to be stronger because they are designed to meet demands an Oceanis is not. Not very different from your example between Aerobatic planes and normal planes.

Did anyone say Salonas are badly built? I don't recall that. I know these boats; I chartered one for a couple of weeks in Croatia some years ago. They are very, very good boats -- inexpensive, with a very modest fitout (even more modest than Bennies), very good performing and strong boats. I was really surprised by the sailing performance. If I were buying a boat on a tight budget, these would be at the top of my list. A really good example in defense of production boats.

[robert sailor]

Don't know a thing about Salona's but did go to their site and looked around. On the surface it looks like a decent boat. If you say it is built much better and stronger that a Beneteau Oceanis then I will accept that as the Oceanis is not exactly the benchmark for strong well built boats.
My wife loves the interior for what thats worth, LOL.

[robert sailor]

Dave,
I have a bias against hulls with full liners and probably always will have. The designs are clever in that you can use a very light hull that can't even hold its shape when removed from the mold but after its married with a liner including all the interior pans for everything from bunks to showers it becomes quite strong. It is clever for sure, the downside is if there is ever a failure in the bond between the liner and hull you are setting yourself up for a catastrophic failure. We have seen these failures recently when boats built this way came apart under adverse conditions.
I owned 2 boats in my past with liners and in both cases I brought on my own problems but those were my heavy learning years. The first one I rubbed a rock and the pan broke in several places. The repair guy explained to me when the boats were built they were globed with glue in the right places and set together but none of the joints can be seen or inspected so the repair he did for me he wouldn't even guarantee because he said there may be damage in other areas that can't be seen and he suggested that it might be time to trade up. Later in another boat in a real strong wind I lost engine power while docking and the boat took a solid thump to the widest part of the beam. Inspection showed no damage, not even a rub mark although it had not been protected by a fender. The next morning I noticed the rigging was a little slack and had a local surveyor check it out. Guess what, same damn thing, the glue bond had failed in the liner under the saloon bunk and another rinky dink no warranty repair followed. The glue used to put these boats together is a very strong glue but other than compression has no strength as is not comparable to fiberglass. So while I realize that when all the production boats are pounding across oceans and are doing fine there is going to be the odd one that fails and you are right, we will never know why.

Building stick boats is certainly more time consuming and uses more materials but for me its what I want when I'm out there getting my butt kicked. I like boats with bulkheads glassed to a hull that has been reinforced with stringers, with a proper keel stub. Yes they are more expensive to build that way but these are my personal biases. I like the new production boats, some of them are really cool and sail like witches and they are extremely well tuned to the current market place but when I'm sailing offshore with my wife its just not my personal choice but I have no problem with others who don't share my bias, each to there own!!

[goboatingnow]

A very reasonable reply.


When I touring the beneteau factory, they explained that the primary reason for liners was to provide an accurate " land" for pre-assembled furniture modules and to carry pre assembled plumbing and electrics. Bulkheads were still fibreglassed in etc

I mean even HR uses partial liners in some cases.

Dave


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[neilpride]

How a HR hull is built

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At Hallberg-Rassy Marinplast AB, an affiliated company owned by Hallberg-Rassy AB, all Hallberg-Rassy hulls are made. No other hulls are built here. The plant is located in Kungshamn, about one hour drive north of the yard. We will here follow how a hull is laid up.

This is what the mould to a hull looks like. The outside is reinforced with strong metal stringers. The inside has a high glossy finish. The mould is made in two parts, which allows us to build the hulls with an integrated rubbing strake on the hull and a deep bilge. This would not be possible if the mould was built in one part.

The hull is laid up from the outside and in. We start to mask the part of the hull that will be blue. The inside of the mould is black. This makes it easier to see where you have put on white gelcoat.

The gelcoat is based on isophtalic resin. The isophtalic resin is very resistant to water penetration and kkeps its glossy finish very well. The white gelcoat is sprayed on. White for the hull and blue gelcoat for the Hallberg-Rassy stripe. A vinylester based barrier coat is applied. This makes the laminate more resistant to water penetration, and at the same time it protects against print through, which is if the glass fibre is visible in the surface finish.

Compared to the single skin hulls in the old days, today's hulls are insulated, which means a superior torsional stiffness of the hull.

The material used is a PVC foam called Divinycell. It is fitted when the laminate is still wet, and then covered by laminate. The Divinycell is a superior material for a cruising boat, compared to balsa. The PVC foam has closed cells, which means that the material does not absorb water. The Divinycell will finally be covered with more laminate.

The stern with the integrated bathing platform is made separately.

The parts of the hull are laminated together before the mould is opened. The points where the parts are put together are laminated so carefully that this will be the strongest part of the hull.

The decks are built in the same way as the hulls. Divinycell used as a core material and strong backing plates that are laminated into the deck under deck hardware.

All laminate is carefully rolled out by hand. Temperature and humidity is strictly controlled during the process and registered together with batch numbers, start and stop times, employee numbers and so on in a log book.

The grid system is an advanced design that reinforces the hull under the waterline. The grid distributes loads from the bottom out in the hull in case of grounding. There is a steel beam moulded athwartship under the mast support to carry the strong loads. The grid will also be the support for the floorboards.

The rudderpost is made of solid stainless steel.

The shaft is laminated into the rudder, forming one solid, very strong unit.

The grid is bonded into the hull.

An aluminium frame is used when the bulkheads are laminated to the hull.

All bulkheads are laminated from both sides, which gives additional strength.

Deck and hull are laminated together. This is made from the inside. This gives a superior torsial stiffness and cannot leak. The coaming between hull and deck is covered by a beautiful teak toetrail. On centre cockpit boats, the rods for the stanchions will be fitted into the solid coaming. The bulkheads are laminated to the deck from both sides. The inside of the hull is painted twice with topcoat.

The hull is now ready for transport to the yard in Ellös. All hulls are trucked to the yard. All equipment like tanks, engine and joinery will come down through the companion hatch. Everything that goes down in the boat can go out without having to take the boat apart.

To see more images, please go here

Nahhh, they are not the same, sorry Sr, not today!!!!

[goboatingnow]

I've toured. The HR plant twice and talked to the assembly workers during the open days. I will of course acknowledge they are well built, but they have some similarities with other production companies, beneteau and many others will not used cored hulls below the waterline for example.

Dave


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[neilpride]

Divinycell my friend , not balsa... but anyway this days cored hulls are everywhere, not my favorite metod but there is hundreds of well build cored boats out there , dashews, etc.. if i need to choose between a well build cored hull with proper bulkheads fiberglased to the hull, hull to deck to joint glassed, a metal frame for keel and mast loads or a ridiculous thin solid hull suported with a BS plastic liner glued with plexus and bulkheads dancing in the liner, i choose the cored hull no matter what.. Cheers....

[downunder]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I've toured. The HR plant twice and talked to the assembly workers during the open days. I will of course acknowledge they are well built, but they have some similarities with other production companies, beneteau and many others will not used cored hulls below the waterline for example.

Dave



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Not that cored below the waterline is a problem here.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Divinycell my friend , not balsa... but anyway this days cored hulls are everywhere, not my favorite metod but there is hundreds of well build cored boats out there , dashews, etc.. if i need to choose between a well build cored hull with proper bulkheads fiberglased to the hull, hull to deck to joint glassed, a metal frame for keel and mast loads or a ridiculous thin solid hull suported with a BS plastic liner glued with plexus and bulkheads dancing in the liner, i choose the cored hull no matter what.. Cheers....

Of course anyone that has in excess of 3x the money for a given length will buy a HR, so what. Personally I'd spend 4x and buy far better then HR.

Dave


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[neilpride]

Well, my life and my loved ones dont have a Price...... probably i do the same Dave, with xxx amount i will buy something better compared with a Rassy,,,,

[robert sailor]

Dave, Correct me if I'm wrong but it was my understanding that the current production boats glassed or glued the bulk heads to the interior liners. These liners were glued to the hull and this method works quite well as long as the liners are not disturbed.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Dave, Correct me if I'm wrong but it was my understanding that the current production boats glassed or glued the bulk heads to the interior liners. These liners were glued to the hull and this method works quite well as long as the liners are not disturbed.

The bottom of the bulkheads yes, and merely sitting in the the pan in some instances, they are then tabbed in fairly degrees into the side of the hull, strangely in Beneteau it differs across different families. what I do notice is that from about 2004 on, the hull liners got bigger and bigger, so must play a structural part these days,

In practice in many stick built hulls the lower edge of the bulkhead were only partially glassed in anyway.

Everyone accepts that the main difficulty in liners is establishing the efficacy of the liner and or its bonding. but in the absence of any meaningful statistics , its impossible to draw conclusions,

Personally if I could afford it I d buy a rustler or a discovery.

dave