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Old 02-05-2014, 17:06   #121
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Looking through the specs for non-ferrous metals used for OEM cast products (as opposed to the much smaller range of alloys available as barstock:

It is clear that a lot of specialised high-strength brasses contain small amounts of nickel, generally less than 1% and sometimes as low as 0.1%.

Most of these are by some yardsticks bronzes, as they contain substantial amounts of tin

However, as they also contain substantial amounts of zinc, for marine purposes they should be considered brasses, suitable only for decorative uses...)

Such small quantities would not be detectable with any magnet, but in a few cases the contain substantial amounts of Nickel AND Iron !

As do a few of the high strength true Bronzes (no zinc); some contain Iron but no Nickel ...

So it's a lot more complicated than I thought, as some of the Aluminium Bronzes look to me as though they would be magnetic, despite containing maybe only 1% nickel, due to Iron content up to maybe 4% - I suspect that might be detectable.

but one of the classic Nickel Aluminium Bronzes (AB2) can have a combined content of Ni and Fe as high as 11%, and that certainly is.

So magnetism is even less useful than I hoped: I'm thinking it could really only be used if you had samples of only two alloys (one low in ferromagnetic constituents, and one high) which had got mixed up.
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Old 02-05-2014, 17:21   #122
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

You guys crack me up.. seems it cant be a Blue water boat unless it costs at least $500K...
Tell that to the guys sail across oceans in boats from £5K to £30K... okay they may not have four staterooms and A/C, watermakers, generators and the latest high tech gear but you find them 1000's of miles from home dropping the hook near you..
But then you'll likely label us boatbums..
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Old 02-05-2014, 18:05   #123
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Regarding the composition of the thru hull fittings, forget messing around with magnets and color, the only sure way to know is to ask the manufacturer for the metal test data and composition. Also, know the source country, and make sure it doesn't come from China where there are few if any, reliable controls over quality.
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Old 02-05-2014, 18:08   #124
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Regarding the composition of the thru hull fittings, forget messing around with magnets and color, the only sure way to know is to ask the manufacturer for the metal test data and composition. Also, know the source country, and make sure it doesn't come from China where there are few if any, reliable controls over quality.

Yep, that's the the best way as long as you know who the manufacturer is
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Old 02-05-2014, 18:18   #125
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

"Buy quality" still applies. I use Groco's best flange-base sea-cocks. They are real bronze.
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Old 02-05-2014, 18:32   #126
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Regarding modern production boat designers and manufacturers, the battle is won for saleability over sailability.

Forget components, rigging and the sailor for a moment. Show me a modern production yacht manufacturer that hand lays 18 cross layers of woven matting for a fibreglass hull. Believe me, it is more solid than reinforced cement. Today's modern production vessels are made with a chopped spray lay-up, typically only two layers of fibreglass with far less tensile and overall strength. Saves costs, increases margins. What happens afterwards in a storm is your problem.

Whether a particular yacht is bluewater or not, is certainly debatable. However if the vessel (or you) stand a chance in a Force 12 mid ocean, your hull's strength and stability are going to play a large part in survival.

I'm unsure where the OP's $500K figures are from. You can buy a classic, beautiful and capable bluewater cruiser for under $70K (depending on condition & fit-out) in most parts of the world.

Give me a lovingly made and well maintained 70's classic yacht over a modern production vessel any day.

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Old 02-05-2014, 18:52   #127
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Old 02-05-2014, 19:25   #128
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

61--Good one.

Singlehanding can be serious business. There is only you and no one to help if you're injured.
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Old 02-05-2014, 19:51   #129
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

What is it with you "either - or" guys?

They made good boats back "in the day." They made a lot of crappy ones that couldn't get out of their way and would sink in lakes.

They do the same today. They make lake boats, they make coastal cruisers and they make a remarkably good array of go - anywhere boats.

What's the argument?
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Old 02-05-2014, 20:14   #130
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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What is it with you "either - or" guys?

They made good boats back "in the day." They made a lot of crappy ones that couldn't get out of their way and would sink in lakes.

They do the same today. They make lake boats, they make coastal cruisers and they make a remarkably good array of go - anywhere boats.

What's the argument?
I think the most striking difference today is that there is a large body of marketers, and a large body of clients (potential or actual) who consider their pride and joy to be something it is patently not.

I don't think this blurring was once so common.
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Old 02-05-2014, 20:24   #131
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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I think the most striking difference today is that there is a large body of marketers, and a large body of clients (potential or actual) who consider their pride and joy to be something it is patently not.

I don't think this blurring was once so common.
PErhaps not, Andrew, but I dunno...

I bought a new Catalina 22 way back when they first appeared, hull #61. After a while I began racing it on SF Bay with the SYRA, and eventually got dismasted. I whined to Frank Butler (originator of Catalina Yachts) and he said the boat wasn't designed for those conditions. I sent him a copy of one of their adverts which described the boat as a "rugged ocean cruiser". He was so embarrassed that he sent me a new mast and an apology! So, blurring of descriptions is nothing new... but I doubt if many of the modern CEO's would be as forthcoming today!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 02-05-2014, 20:30   #132
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by BoomBrake View Post
Regarding modern production boat designers and manufacturers, the battle is won for saleability over sailability. Today's modern production vessels are made with a chopped spray lay-up, typically only two layers of fibreglass with far less tensile.
Give me a lovingly made and well maintained 70's classic yacht over a modern production vessel any day.

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That is BS. They don't use chopper guns for modern boat hulls. HR made one, the (Rasmus) and that's about it.
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Old 02-05-2014, 20:47   #133
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Bigjer40,

After reading and rereading your post, your what I first took as a tongue in cheek, and then a philosophical, and finally as an honest question, as stated, can not really be answered. At least not beyond the point that you already answered it yourself.

Certainly, cutting edge (or at least modern) technology and materials can be generally perceived as 'superior', and properly applied, they usually are.

Unfortunately, as for all our history, availability doesn't ensure proper (or otherwise) applicability.

There are boats being laid as I write this, plastic and wood, aluminum and steel, that will be cherished by their owners. And likewise some that will be despised.

So what makes the difference? Is it actual "blue water superiority"? As you and many others have already said, "We got some pretty good stuff nowadays!"

And therein lies the rub. At what point how, do you (or does anyone), personally, determine what's good enough?

Well, I guess most of us fall back on experience. "This looks strong enough, I trust it." Fair enough. And very generally statistically speaking, the result is Darwinian. The most "Blue water superiority" will be demonstrated by those that do the best in "Blue water".

You know, though it may be an urban myth, I've heard that most people who die from drowning do it in their bathtubs.

Regards, jbyrd
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Old 02-05-2014, 21:21   #134
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

@ Guy you are probably right, I'm no expert. But the example I gave was common of the many methods for high production run hulls, more recently is vacuum injection (again sprayed into mould vacuum system) method that is predominantly about minimising cost. The point I was making is that the modern production focus is on maximising profit and minimising complexity over bullet-proof hull design and manufacture. Bluewater by definition means as bullet-proof as possible.

Again, all opinion and up for conjecture. ; )

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Old 02-05-2014, 21:25   #135
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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PErhaps not, Andrew, but I dunno...

I bought a new Catalina 22 way back when they first appeared, hull #61. After a while I began racing it on SF Bay with the SYRA, and eventually got dismasted. I whined to Frank Butler (originator of Catalina Yachts) and he said the boat wasn't designed for those conditions. I sent him a copy of one of their adverts which described the boat as a "rugged ocean cruiser". He was so embarrassed that he sent me a new mast and an apology! So, blurring of descriptions is nothing new... but I doubt if many of the modern CEO's would be as forthcoming today!

Cheers,

Jim
Maybe it's not so much more marketing today, as it is that 95% of builders don't keep as tight a reign on marketers as they used to. Especially since you can guarantee builders come on sites like this and see all the "if it floats, it can go anywhere" posts from people. Now, no matter what a boat was designed to do, marketers have no qualms about labeling every boat a "rugged blue-water cruiser."

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