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Old 30-04-2014, 15:59   #106
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
French Bene.. or a USA Bene...
Good question, but a 2001 First 47.7 sounds French to me:

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The 47.7 is a Bruce Farr design created without regard to handicap rules, so the hull lines are both powerful and slippery. It has a fine entry, a comfortably wide transom and a choice of keels depending on your sailing needs. Beneteau has sold more than 500 of these yachts overseas; it has just introduced the 47.7 to the U.S. market and the waiting list already stretches for more than a year.

Beneteau First 47.7 Reviews
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Old 30-04-2014, 16:03   #107
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Seems to be primarily a Euro problem...
NO!

We see this on (mostly older) boats built in the Far East and even US.
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Old 30-04-2014, 16:10   #108
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Well my 2001 Bene 331 was built in the US and chartered with Moorings BVI till I bought her.. so its possible..
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Old 30-04-2014, 16:19   #109
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Do you have any direct links to boat builders using brass hull fittings?
There's really no way to know for sure if the thru hulls are made of brass, naval bronze or ??? unless you buy them yourself and insist on seeing the alloy make up of the metal. Many, if not most of the boats manufactured since the late 1990's have been fitted with the cheaper fittings.

Just to be safe, I'll be replacing all of our thru hulls, in two weeks time, using Naval bronze fittings manufactured in the USA 85-5-5-5; the Marilon valves and elbows will be replaced with new Forespar marilon valves and elbows. Otherwise... there's really no way to tell right up to failure time, and I'm not willing to take the chance with 24 below the waterline thu hulls.
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Old 02-05-2014, 05:35   #110
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg
Seems to be primarily a Euro problem...
NO!

We see this on (mostly older) boats built in the Far East and even US.
Well, I'd suggest being that the EU Recreational Boat ISO standards were re-written in 1998 to permit the use of such materials, and given the preeminence that European boatbuilders have achieved in the current market - with a manufacturer such as Bavaria churning out over 2,000 units per year - it has become primarily an issue with Euro boats at this point in time...

Quote:

In the past, boatbuilders
who used brass fittings were
usually caught out and had to
improve their specifications. But
everything changed in 1998,
when the European Community’s
Recreational Craft Directive (RCD)
came into force. Where seacocks
are concerned, it has made
matters worse.

All boats must now conform
to a wide range of compulsory
ISO standards. The standard for
metallic seacocks and through-
hull fittings (IS0 9093-1) states:
‘Materials used shall be corrosion-
resistant...’ But amazingly, the
directive defines corrosion-
resistant as: ‘a material which,
within a service time of five years,
does not display any defect that
will impair tightness, strength
or function."

http://www.paulstevenssurveys.com/upload/Seacocks.pdf
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:20   #111
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Every year I go to the floating Seattle Boat Show and check out all the latest yachts so I can keep up with all that is out there. The main I noticed in new boats that are not up to my personal standard is the materials used in the interiors, plastic through hulls, light duty hardware among other things.
Seams like every year the quality keeps going down, as builders try to cut costs.

Even if I had the money (Which I don't) to purchase a new yacht, I'm afraid I would be tearing out a lot of things and replacing with real wood, heavier hardware, replacing all the plastic with bronze and stainless, etc etc.

On the other hand, I am ALL for new technology and the new hull designs, electronic gadgets and things that make life easier offshore. So when I rebuild my older boats I implement as much as I can with the newer technology while still keeping the quality of materials and hardware high as possible.

I suppose my perfect yacht would be a new hull design that is overbuilt and solid wood interior instead of all the veneer crap that peels up like a banana when it gets wet.
I realize there is some new high end manufacturers that will build all this into their yachts, but only the wealthy can afford them.

We live in a yacht I rebuilt that will outlast my lifetime because I used the very best material available. So now our 40 year old yacht is in better shape then when it was new, and since I did everything myself, including the price I payed for it, I have less that 1\10th of what a new one would cost of the same quality.

On the other hand, If you pay to have other people refit or do any major reconstruction then it may be better just to purchase a new one.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:42   #112
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's really no way to know for sure if the thru hulls are made of brass, naval bronze or ??? unless you buy them yourself and insist on seeing the alloy make up of the metal. Many, if not most of the boats manufactured since the late 1990's have been fitted with the cheaper fittings.

Just to be safe, I'll be replacing all of our thru hulls, in two weeks time, using Naval bronze fittings manufactured in the USA 85-5-5-5; the Marilon valves and elbows will be replaced with new Forespar marilon valves and elbows. Otherwise... there's really no way to tell right up to failure time, and I'm not willing to take the chance with 24 below the waterline thu hulls.
Maybe I'm naive but what systems/amenities do you have that needs 24 thru hulls? Honestly didn't know that many existed on one boat.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:59   #113
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
There's really no way to know for sure if the thru hulls are made of brass, naval bronze or ??? unless you buy them yourself and insist on seeing the alloy make up of the metal. Many, if not most of the boats manufactured since the late 1990's have been fitted with the cheaper fittings.

Just to be safe, I'll be replacing all of our thru hulls, in two weeks time, using Naval bronze fittings manufactured in the USA 85-5-5-5; the Marilon valves and elbows will be replaced with new Forespar marilon valves and elbows. Otherwise... there's really no way to tell right up to failure time, and I'm not willing to take the chance with 24 below the waterline thu hulls.

Brass and bronze usually have different colors and oxidize differently. Bronze tends to be darker in color compared to brass. Also Brass is slightly magnetic, whereas bronze is not magnetic at all. So if you had a powerful magnet, you usually can tell if it is brass.

I am saying "usually" because it depends on how much "zinc" they put in the brass.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:25   #114
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

"Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!"

...that's because the entire "Bluewater Boat thing" is a marketing term like Jumbo Shrimp.

...alternatively, it's a catch-all phrase to give people something to talk intellegently about on internet chat rooms.

If I had a dollar for every thread that had the word "Bluewater" in the title followed by lectures, grandstanding and more BS than a Texas Cattle Ranch...well I wouldn't be working today on this nice sunny Friday in Morro Bay, I can tell you that.

My boat is Bluewater....your's isn't...bla bla bla....pass the beer and pretzels.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:28   #115
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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"Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!"



...alternatively, it's a catch-all phrase to give people something to talk intellegently about on internet chat rooms.
That that is funny on so many levels
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:59   #116
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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That that is funny on so many levels
Mission Accomplished....even misspelled intelligent as an added bonus treasure in the statement....
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:08   #117
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
"Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!"

...that's because the entire "Bluewater Boat thing" is a marketing term like Jumbo Shrimp.

...alternatively, it's a catch-all phrase to give people something to talk intellegently about on internet chat rooms.

If I had a dollar for every thread that had the word "Bluewater" in the title followed by lectures, grandstanding and more BS than a Texas Cattle Ranch...well I wouldn't be working today on this nice sunny Friday in Morro Bay, I can tell you that.

My boat is Bluewater....your's isn't...bla bla bla....pass the beer and pretzels.


If someone named their Beneliner "Bluewater" would that work?
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Old 02-05-2014, 14:32   #118
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magnetism is not a useful test for differentiating brass from bronze

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Brass and bronze usually have different colors and oxidize differently. Bronze tends to be darker in color compared to brass. Also Brass is slightly magnetic, whereas bronze is not magnetic at all. So if you had a powerful magnet, you usually can tell if it is brass.

I am saying "usually" because it depends on how much "zinc" they put in the brass.
Thanks for that, leightonyachts.

That was a new one on me, so I took a small neodyminium magnet and went through my store of 'thought to be brass' offcuts and scrapped components.

In the first twenty pieces, I got two instances of magnetism, very faint in one case (it could barely hold the lightweight magnet against the force of gravity). In the next twenty, I got one.

Then I checked my bronze scrap bin. Only one 'hit' - a wormwheel made of Nickel Aluminium Bronze.

I also dug out some material from a project I did a long time ago investigating a new swaging method for the resilient locking element for propellor nuts for Mercruiser. It was an alloy, nominally brass, which I had not previously encountered, but I don't think I'm allowed to reveal the spec, even if I could lay my hands on it.

It was 'strongly' magnetic compared with all the other supposedly brass samples. In other words, if careful, the magnetism could be detected (just) using a good quality 'old school' horseshoe magnet (Eclipse brand, Alnico material)

That makes sense: apart from the 'rare earth' elements (including neodyminium, which was what I was using as my superstrong test magnet)
the only elements which are ferromagnetic at room temperature, as far as I know, are iron, cobalt, and nickel.

Metallic Zinc is not magnetic under any circumstances; it's in the same category as gold and copper in the subtler shadings (diamagnetic rather than paramagnetic).

There are almost no 'true' brasses containing nickel, but it's conceivable that it could be a trace contaminant in brass made partly from scrap (as could cobalt, I suppose, but that seems highly unlikely).

I suspect one of the 'brass' items I checked was actually 90/10 copper nickel (it wasn't silvery enough to be 70/30)

So thanks for the interesting diversion, but I can confirm that magnetism is not a useful test for differentiating brass from bronze.

However it IS a useful test for distinguishing aluminium bronze (a wonderful material on boats) from nickel aluminium bronze (which is a miraculous material on boats) and I had NEVER thought of that

so I thank you sincerely for your suggestion.
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Old 02-05-2014, 14:38   #119
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

I think those who don't already have one of their boats should be grateful to any manufacturer who chooses brass seacocks.

It seems to me that's a bit like finding out that your fiancé doesn't mind hurting animals.


Useful information.
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Old 02-05-2014, 16:55   #120
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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I'm in complete agreement - newer cruising monohulls are much better in every respect. OK, sure, the move towards wider beam has increased inverse stability - but who cares? Interior volume is more important. Sure, the flat sections aft and the lack of rocker can lead to pounding and a less sea-kindly motion - but again, who cares? Comfort at the dock is far more important for the offshore sailor. The huge portlights that are currently in vogue may be unsafe in heavy seas - but who cares? A bright interior is far more important when offshore. Plumb bows may lead to a wet foredeck and to problems with the anchor striking the topsides, but who cares? They look sexy and increase the waterline.

Spade rudders may be far more susceptible to damage than ones on skegs/partial skegs/mounted aft of the keel, but who cares about that in a cruising boat? There is a performance advantage and that is all that matters. Relatively flat underbodies may produce minimal bilges, but who cares? What boat will ever take on water when underway? Things like proper sea-berths are a waste of space - who needs to be secure when heeling or in heavy seas? No, huge doubles are the way to go!

Large dedicated nav stations? A ridiculous waste of space. Proper wet lockers near the companionway? Ditto. Manual pumps (even as a back-up) for the galley? Come on, when do electrical systems ever fail?

I'm in total agreement. There is absolutely nothing to commend any aspect of the design of older cruising boats.

Brad
Yes, no more voyage or bluewater boats are made anymore since they all are made with the characteristics that make them marina boats, the ones you stated: Xc yachts, Boreal, Halberg Rassy, Oyster, Cigale, Allures and many other that supposedly were designed as blue water boats all have those characteristics that make them primarily marina designed boats.

Today Naval Architects just don't now what they are doing when designing blue-water boats. All that are considered the best, from Farr to Finot, passing by Marc Lombard, Umberto Felci or Rob Humphreys don't know what they are doing. There is a vast conspiracy to make marina boats even when they are supposedly designed and are used offshore.

Or that, or you are just misunderstanding a lot in what regards modern Yacht Naval Architecture and contemporary cruising bluewater boats perform better than older ones.
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