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Old 27-04-2014, 03:38   #76
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Oh no, let's not start the Lambretta v Vespa war again between a couple of aging "mods".
It's been all quiet on that front for 40 odd years
Mods? No........ I just liked them. I also had Honda, Suzuki and Kawazaki high powered motor cycles.

But everyone knows Lambrettas are the best.
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Old 27-04-2014, 06:11   #77
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Oh no, let's not start the Lambretta v Vespa war again between a couple of aging "mods".
It's been all quiet on that front for 40 odd years
LMAO... the only 'Wars' we had were against Rockers... those dirty booga's who thought crapping in their jeans was cool... Brighton... Felixstowe... ahhhh... Glory Days...
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Old 27-04-2014, 06:36   #78
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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LMAO... the only 'Wars' we had were against Rockers... those dirty booga's who thought crapping in their jeans was cool... Brighton... Felixstowe... ahhhh... Glory Days...
I remember once getting surrounded by high powered bikers in Blackpool. About 20 of them all looking menacing... Of Course I had about 50 mirrors on the lambretta.
They kept laughing and tried to take mirrors off whilst we were going down the road.
We approached the large roundabout at the bottom of Dickson Road which led on to the promenade. As it was my local turf, I hit the accelerator and leaned right over into the roundabout. Of course being a good lambretta owner, I had titanium strips on each side of the foot plate. If you bent over far enough it would send up a shitstorm of sparks and flashes. They were not expecting a Lambretta to be as fast as it was or the stream of sparks..
I watched in all my mirrors the rockers doing what rockers were good at and crap in their pants whilst screaming to a halt.
I survived another day.
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Old 27-04-2014, 07:26   #79
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Oh you crazy Brits!

Here's how we roll in Murica:




Here's something really nutty: a politician or son of one musta gotten a DUI cuz at some point here in NC a law was passed allowing folks to ride a < 50cc scooter without a driver's license or insurance. And a serious dearth of mirrors!



The result is that now the roads are clogged up with cars trucks (Patriots/Rebels/Rednecks have trucks) waiting aggressively to pass some dumb yokel who has already proven to one and all to not have been responsible enough to drive a truck with license and insurance. Just guessing that this is another fallout of the 60s.

I am a biker and cyclist meself but still ya want to kick em over as ya go by. We can't physically do it tho as the frickin trucks are so high here in the US that you'd need to be a world class basketball player to even get close. (USA...USA... winner of every basketball championship since ... well, ever.)

To steer this thread back on course, I have a modernish slack-bilged, fin keel spade-ruddered very agile speedster that has made a circnav or two. I have even cut a tuna door in the stern so I can be easily swamped by a following sea! I can just change the name slightly to Blue Water. That should solve these repetitive thread issues, eh?

(I like to toss a bone to our Canuck neighbors when it costs me nothing. They're only good at cold things. A prickly bunch, and quick to take umbrage at imagined slights.)
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Old 27-04-2014, 07:29   #80
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Oh you crazy Brits!
(I like to toss a bone to our Canuck neighbors when it costs me nothing. They're only good at cold things. A prickly bunch, and quick to take umbrage at imagined slights.)


waitin' and a watchin'..............
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Old 27-04-2014, 08:47   #81
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

My wife is Canadian, and she doesn't even like hockey. Must means she's "civilized."
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Old 27-04-2014, 12:56   #82
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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My wife is Canadian, and she doesn't even like hockey. Must means she's "civilized."

Yep. Here in NC where we rarely even have ice in the winter, we have a hockey team beloved by the Rednecks locals. I think it's because of the violence.

"Eh" is about the juiciest bone I toss to the Canucks. Off the top of my head, the only Canadian I actually like is Mike O'Reilly, and with a name like that how "Canadian" can he be?

And Stu, nice synopsis on the 60s thread. That was pretty much how I saw things right up to now. I'd like to be a bit more optimistic than Weavis but I just can't do it.
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Old 27-04-2014, 14:02   #83
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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I'm in complete agreement - newer cruising monohulls are much better in every respect. OK, sure, the move towards wider beam has increased inverse stability - but who cares? Interior volume is more important. Sure, the flat sections aft and the lack of rocker can lead to pounding and a less sea-kindly motion - but again, who cares? Comfort at the dock is far more important for the offshore sailor. The huge portlights that are currently in vogue may be unsafe in heavy seas - but who cares? A bright interior is far more important when offshore. Plumb bows may lead to a wet foredeck and to problems with the anchor striking the topsides, but who cares? They look sexy and increase the waterline.

Spade rudders may be far more susceptible to damage than ones on skegs/partial skegs/mounted aft of the keel, but who cares about that in a cruising boat? There is a performance advantage and that is all that matters. Relatively flat underbodies may produce minimal bilges, but who cares? What boat will ever take on water when underway? Things like proper sea-berths are a waste of space - who needs to be secure when heeling or in heavy seas? No, huge doubles are the way to go!

Large dedicated nav stations? A ridiculous waste of space. Proper wet lockers near the companionway? Ditto. Manual pumps (even as a back-up) for the galley? Come on, when do electrical systems ever fail?

I'm in total agreement. There is absolutely nothing to commend any aspect of the design of older cruising boats.

Brad
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Old 27-04-2014, 14:04   #84
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post

And Stu, nice synopsis on the 60s thread. That was pretty much how I saw things right up to now. I'd like to be a bit more optimistic than Weavis but I just can't do it.
Oh go on......... you know you want to.
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Old 27-04-2014, 14:10   #85
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Originally Posted by Southern Star
I'm in complete agreement - newer cruising monohulls are much better in every respect. OK, sure, the move towards wider beam has increased inverse stability - but who cares? Interior volume is more important. Sure, the flat sections aft and the lack of rocker can lead to pounding and a less sea-kindly motion - but again, who cares? Comfort at the dock is far more important for the offshore sailor. The huge portlights that are currently in vogue may be unsafe in heavy seas - but who cares? A bright interior is far more important when offshore. Plumb bows may lead to a wet foredeck and to problems with the anchor striking the topsides, but who cares? They look sexy and increase the waterline.

Spade rudders may be far more susceptible to damage than ones on skegs/partial skegs/mounted aft of the keel, but who cares about that in a cruising boat? There is a performance advantage and that is all that matters. Relatively flat underbodies may produce minimal bilges, but who cares? What boat will ever take on water when underway? Things like proper sea-berths are a waste of space - who needs to be secure when heeling or in heavy seas? No, huge doubles are the way to go!

Large dedicated nav stations? A ridiculous waste of space. Proper wet lockers near the companionway? Ditto. Manual pumps (even as a back-up) for the galley? Come on, when do electrical systems ever fail?

I'm in total agreement. There is absolutely nothing to commend any aspect of the design of older cruising boats.

Brad

This has earned the weavis Sarcasm medal of honour for today.........
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Old 27-04-2014, 14:12   #86
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Old 28-04-2014, 01:52   #87
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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I have an issue with the assumption that modern glass fibre techniques are inferior. Thinner? yes. Not as strong? Incorrect. Fixed a lot of delamination issues? Yes.
It is down to the builder to use these techniques properly.
Most builders have recently modernized their production methods quite significantly. They had to, because of new labor and environmental regulations. As a result hulls are now built on a computerized assembly line that builds consistently good hulls.
Some high volume builders even use vacuum infusion. That does indeed result in thinner laminates and lighter hulls. but these hulls are not inferior.
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Old 28-04-2014, 02:04   #88
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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And the number of sailboats on the water designed by Steve Dashew, making a wild guess, is something like 0.01% of the total or maybe 0.05% of the boats with spade rudders?
You are right, but the point I am arguing is that spade rudders can be made sufficiently strong so there is no reason to forgo the better steering they offer because of paranoia. Dashew is just one example of experienced cruisers not being afraid of spade rudders.


Quote:
There are many, many cases of boats with spade rudders that bumped something and ended up with jammed steering, often with the rudder hard over. Maybe not on a Deerfoot but just about any other boat you care to name with a spade rudder has had it happen.
If you hit something you're probably near the coast, where help (or an escape) are likely to be available. What I would worry about is rudder problems in the middle of a passage. Looking at yachts that ran in to problems with their rudders en route I would appear that they mostly were due to lack of maintenance.
Which leads me to conclude that you just must make sure that you know how your rudder can fail, and periodically check it.

And not run your boat aground of course...
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Old 28-04-2014, 02:07   #89
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Most builders have recently modernized their production methods quite significantly. They had to, because of new labor and environmental regulations. As a result hulls are now built on a computerized assembly line that builds consistently good hulls.
Some high volume builders even use vacuum infusion. That does indeed result in thinner laminates and lighter hulls. but these hulls are not inferior.
I think we have a an instinctive reaction to looking at or 'through' thin hulls and wondering if they are strong enough or 'thick' enough for safety. It is disconcerting to view the shadow of lapping water on the other side.

Vacuum infusion is a really clever way of maximising accuracy of material spread and consistency that is measurable at every stage. It is also VERY strong.

Costing a project will always take an end result to the minimum acceptable and safe amount required, which is OK, but I prefer a tad more allowance for old fashioned extra for the "just in case" scenario.

I love old boats. I dont like old boats the require nursing and expensive upkeep like a granny in a nursing home. I do like the 'hand finished' attention to detail but the lack of available spares sometimes is frustrating.
I like new things, but I dont like the mass produced vacuum moulded sterile look sometimes.
Its all about juggling. Gotta find what you like and go with it. I most certainly would not turn down a new boat on grounds that iti is inferior. I just might not like the look.
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Old 28-04-2014, 07:26   #90
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Yes rtbates, as weavis pointed out, I was being sarcastic. I too care about these things - although I do not for one minute think that everyone's priorities are the same. Some will be prepared to sacrifice certain elements of design/construction that promote safety/comfort underway in order to improve space/comfort in harbour.

For most people, the newer designs/newr boats are better for their intended use. Not only because their systems/sails/engines are newer (and here newer is better, obviously), but because space and comfort in harbour are more important for them than the ultimate in safety/practicality during long offshore passages. Nevertheless, I think we have to recognize that in yacht design/construction, virtually everything is a compromise.

Does the recent trend in monohull design towards extreme beam, relatively flat underbodies, minimal bilges, huge portlights, huge windage, no sea berths, sharp-edged joinerwork improve comfort/safety if the going gets rough underway? Of course not. This is not to say, however, that one cannot make a safe offshore passage in most such designs. Still, if the going gets really rough, I know which type of design I would rather be in.

Brad
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