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Old 31-05-2014, 00:44   #316
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
SNIP

1. GPS/Chartplotters versus Sextant: Much less skill is required in order to get much more accurate fixes.

SNIP
7. Better weather forecasting: And better equipment for obtaining GRIB files etc. while offshore.

SNIP
Maybe a little OT but when BP/Spindrift captured the Jules Vern Trophy they credited their ability to play weather systems for the speed. But they credited the information about flotsam/jetsam from remote sensing for helping them avoid hitting stuff that not only would slow them down, but might also sink them.

If you have not seen the footage from Fastnet it is worth a click

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Old 31-05-2014, 02:40   #317
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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With all due respect, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Production Freya's were molded fiberglass, not steel. These boats have circumnavigated. The advantage of a canoe stern to resist pooping, in following, breaking seas, is obvious to everyone except you.

And we were talking about a 39' boat, not a 50-footer.
So that is me that don't know what I am not talking about

Not even a steel boat (heavier)...and Freya is a 39ft sailboat designed to be sailed in bad weather

As I have said I know several Bavaria 36 that have circumnavigated, one of them two times...that does not make them sailboats designed to cross Oceans in bad weather.

Regarding the advantages (or not) of a canoe stern, maybe you should read that article by Bob Perry. They have two big disadvantages: they increase roll (not limiting it) and they provide a lot less hull form stability and that's why they have been substituted by more efficient transom forms and shapes even in boats that have not interior space as main concern.
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Old 31-05-2014, 02:49   #318
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Not everyone wants to get on and off and into the water. Climbing ladders. pain in the arse. Just an old concept nowdays. I Like the sterns on the Dashew's monohulls.
And Dashew designs his boats to be able to survive the worst weather. He doesn't seem to believe in double enders either though...

The idea that a double ender is better able to withstand waves coming from astern is a myth, borne from not really understanding waves. The wave may be moving towards you, but the water in it isn't. The wave just lifts you.
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Old 31-05-2014, 03:02   #319
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Completely incorrect. Yes to some degree size can matter but in general more for comfort than ultimate safety. By far the most critical issue is the quality of the boat.

With the proper designed and constructed boat I would take a 39 footer (or smaller) anywhere.
Stability is what makes a boat stay upright and not capsize. Stability will depend on the size of the arm (GZ) that has to do with beam, size of the boat, position of CG and with weight. Even if a small boat can be proportionally heavier the limits are narrow. To really have a heavy sailboat that sails well you need a bigger one. To have a big arm you need a big boat or one with a ridiculously low CG and beam.

The energy needed to capsize a boat depends on the boat stability, the bigger the boat (heavier, beamier and with a lower CG), the bigger the wave needed to capsize it. Any small sailboat can be capsized by a small breaking wave, as reality and tank testing has showed.

Having a boat strong is an important point but only one point regarding seaworthiness in bad weather. You need also a boat that will not be capsized by 3 meters breaking waves and no small sailingboat is able to resist any considerable sized breaking wave. You can have it as strong as possible but when rolled the chances are that the mast broke and the outcome is always uncertain regarding boat damage (engine and so on).

Again, I am talking about boats that can take sail safely in bad weather, meaning the wrong season and the wrong place, not boats that can cross oceans on the right season and can sustain some heavier weather. I am talking about bad weather.
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Old 31-05-2014, 03:14   #320
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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..

Someone else mentioned a full keel not dissipating energy because it won't go with the wave. I'm far from an expert but I'm thinking when the wave is in charge of where a boat goes that's when the trouble starts.

....
Here you have an expert explaining that with drawings on one of his books (30 years ago). Tabarly had a huge experience with both types of boats and loved both. His personal boat, an old family boat, was a full keeler and he won many transatlantic races on fin keel boats.



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Old 31-05-2014, 04:27   #321
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Something I have trouble wrapping my mind around with this bluewater thing is that so many people on CF actually enjoy bluewater sailing. Maybe it is considered heresy to say this, but my very limited experiences of sailing out of sight of land for just a day or two were more about endurance than fun. Running watches all night and living at a 20 degree heel isn't actually all that fun.

Crossing blue water is something we endure to get to a neat place, not something we seek. To us, coastal cruising and nights at anchor or in a slip is much more fun.

Perhaps this is why, for us, the current crop of lightweight fiberglass pleasure yachts is absolutely great.

Am I the only person who feels this way?
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Old 31-05-2014, 05:41   #322
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Uh oh:

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Old 31-05-2014, 06:15   #323
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Here you have an expert explaining that with drawings on one of his books (30 years ago). Tabarly had a huge experience with both types of boats and loved both. His personal boat, an old family boat, was a full keeler and he won many transatlantic races on fin keel boats.



Even if that were true, which it isn't, I wouldn't lie a hull in either one of them which makes the whole scenatio obsolete..
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Old 31-05-2014, 08:48   #324
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

BWB75
Nothing wrong with your thoughts, 99% of the sailors agree with you. Crossing oceans is only done by a very small % of sailors these days and passages can be quite difficult so its certainly not fun for most BUT for those that are hooked on voyaging, its the only way to fly. Crossing oceans opens up the excitement of new lands,new cultures and new experiences and a cult like comradery with others that also voyage. Its hard to put into words.
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Old 31-05-2014, 08:54   #325
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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BWB75
Nothing wrong with your thoughts, 99% of the sailors agree with you. Crossing oceans is only done by a very small % of sailors these days and passages can be quite difficult so its certainly not fun for most BUT for those that are hooked on voyaging, its the only way to fly. Crossing oceans opens up the excitement of new lands,new cultures and new experiences and a cult like comradery with others that also voyage. Its hard to put into words.
Thanks for the great response! And, I believe you...

Of course, you are all at least slightly crazy.
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Old 31-05-2014, 14:54   #326
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Just my interpretation. I believe Mr Crelock means that in spite of 'taking
bad seas' the best one can, however one determines that to be, that it will
be the stern that takes the most spanking. I don't believe he's saying,
nor implying, that one should take "bad seas' with the stern. But that's just my opinion.

My dream boat happens to be the Pacific Seacraft 37. I am sure there are
better boats, but for me it' sure seems to be one of the better all round
boats going.
One of mine is the Valiant and I bet your right that's what he meant!
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Old 31-05-2014, 15:12   #327
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Stability is what makes a boat stay upright and not capsize. Stability will depend on the size of the arm (GZ) that has to do with beam, size of the boat, position of CG and with weight. Even if a small boat can be proportionally heavier the limits are narrow. To really have a heavy sailboat that sails well you need a bigger one. To have a big arm you need a big boat or one with a ridiculously low CG and beam.

The energy needed to capsize a boat depends on the boat stability, the bigger the boat (heavier, beamier and with a lower CG), the bigger the wave needed to capsize it. Any small sailboat can be capsized by a small breaking wave, as reality and tank testing has showed.

Having a boat strong is an important point but only one point regarding seaworthiness in bad weather. You need also a boat that will not be capsized by 3 meters breaking waves and no small sailingboat is able to resist any considerable sized breaking wave. You can have it as strong as possible but when rolled the chances are that the mast broke and the outcome is always uncertain regarding boat damage (engine and so on).

Again, I am talking about boats that can take sail safely in bad weather, meaning the wrong season and the wrong place, not boats that can cross oceans on the right season and can sustain some heavier weather. I am talking about bad weather.
I'm sure there is plenty of truth in what you say and I can't wait till I get my bigger boat! It's normally only the top 10-20 % of a wave that brakes so a 3 meter brake is a big wave but yes there are big waves out there!

Being hove too is better IMO then all sails down and will get a smaller boat through some pretty bad stuff and help it ride through the braking portion of the wave.

There are other methods for the really extreme but since I have no real experience with them I'll shut up.
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Old 31-05-2014, 15:40   #328
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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...since I have no real experience with them I'll shut up.
There's a novel approach.
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Old 01-06-2014, 04:37   #329
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Something I have trouble wrapping my mind around with this bluewater thing is that so many people on CF actually enjoy bluewater sailing. Maybe it is considered heresy to say this, but my very limited experiences of sailing out of sight of land for just a day or two were more about endurance than fun. Running watches all night and living at a 20 degree heel isn't actually all that fun.

Crossing blue water is something we endure to get to a neat place, not something we seek. To us, coastal cruising and nights at anchor or in a slip is much more fun.

Perhaps this is why, for us, the current crop of lightweight fiberglass pleasure yachts is absolutely great.

Am I the only person who feels this way?
Yes, my wive. I do not chose to sail in bad weather and if possible avoid winds over 20K, specially upwind, but even with modern meteorology sometimes you get a lot more than that. On those occasions it can be pretty disagreeable even if the fell of accomplishment in the end is rewarding but when you glide at 7k on a full moon on 10/13K winds, I like to be out all night taking 15m naps. My wife will prefer to have a "normal" night in the cabin.

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Old 01-06-2014, 04:50   #330
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Your picture is exactly how I feel at about 4am after a sleepless night on watch.
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