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Old 25-04-2014, 09:51   #16
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

I'm in complete agreement - newer cruising monohulls are much better in every respect. OK, sure, the move towards wider beam has increased inverse stability - but who cares? Interior volume is more important. Sure, the flat sections aft and the lack of rocker can lead to pounding and a less sea-kindly motion - but again, who cares? Comfort at the dock is far more important for the offshore sailor. The huge portlights that are currently in vogue may be unsafe in heavy seas - but who cares? A bright interior is far more important when offshore. Plumb bows may lead to a wet foredeck and to problems with the anchor striking the topsides, but who cares? They look sexy and increase the waterline.

Spade rudders may be far more susceptible to damage than ones on skegs/partial skegs/mounted aft of the keel, but who cares about that in a cruising boat? There is a performance advantage and that is all that matters. Relatively flat underbodies may produce minimal bilges, but who cares? What boat will ever take on water when underway? Things like proper sea-berths are a waste of space - who needs to be secure when heeling or in heavy seas? No, huge doubles are the way to go!

Large dedicated nav stations? A ridiculous waste of space. Proper wet lockers near the companionway? Ditto. Manual pumps (even as a back-up) for the galley? Come on, when do electrical systems ever fail?

I'm in total agreement. There is absolutely nothing to commend any aspect of the design of older cruising boats.

Brad
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Old 25-04-2014, 09:57   #17
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Sometimes your right, but I'll take a laminated glass and Stainless Steel port hole over a plastic one any day, just as one example.
I'd agree with that. I think what's been happening, especially over the last 10-15 years, is people are demanding lower prices so to accommodate them, builders no longer overbuild their boats. Less interior woodwork, more plastic. Making hulls only as thick as they absolutely have to. Using self tapping screws instead of through bolting hardware where they can. Using gate valves instead of proper seacocks on through hulls. Acrylic instead of metal for ports. Its not that builders are trying to be cheap, its that they're trying to remain profitable while meeting customers demands for reduced prices.

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Old 25-04-2014, 10:07   #18
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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I have been looking for my second boat for a while now. Am I the only one that struggles with the thought that humans have been crossing the 7 seas for thousands of years on anything they could find, but todays technology that costs a small fortune is said to not be capable of the task?
One comment on that is lots of those boats never made it and I am sure the record keeping across the world wasn't what it is today.

It really is knowing your boat. Would I take my current boat on a trans-oceanic voyage. Absolutely not! But that's because it has been rode hard and put away wet for a long time. I know of many issues with it that on rough seas would be a problem but on the lake where she is....not so much.

Just remember people take row boats across the ocean. Any boat can do it just have to do your prep work and have a little bit of smarts to get there.


This boat made it for 13 months at sea. So rule of thumb if yours is better then this then you should be a ok
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Old 25-04-2014, 10:08   #19
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

This might ad a little perspective EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Lessons Learned: Sailing to Hawaii...The First Attempt by Arnold Rowe There is a difference.
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Old 25-04-2014, 10:28   #20
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

Many sailing adventure books are written by marginal skippers, with poor preparation and poor decisions took a rather ordinary trip and turned it into high adventure.
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Old 25-04-2014, 10:30   #21
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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I'd agree with that. I think what's been happening, especially over the last 10-15 years, is people are demanding lower prices so to accommodate them, builders no longer overbuild their boats. Less interior woodwork, more plastic. Making hulls only as thick as they absolutely have to. Using self tapping screws instead of through bolting hardware where they can. Using gate valves instead of proper seacocks on through hulls. Acrylic instead of metal for ports. Its not that builders are trying to be cheap, its that they're trying to remain profitable while meeting customers demands for reduced prices.

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I think your exactly right, I think the average working slob and I am one so don't take that as an offence, has less spendable income than they did in the 70's. I see a lot of evidence of that, the wealthy on the other hand are wealthier. So in order to stay in business boat manufacturers that sell to the working class have to be able to offer a boat for less money, and the only way to do that is to reduce costs.

I come from a decently experienced power boat background, there it was Bayliner, a less than perfectly made boat produced in mass with less expensive everything, but as Brunswick owned everything from the trailer to the motor, they could offer a less expensive, safe boat for way less than most and still make a profit, and they got a lot of people boating that maybe otherwise wouldn't be, so they served a purpose.
But to say that a new Bayliner is a better boat than some others because it's new, just isn't true. In ten years the Bayliner's wooden floor etc. may well be rotten out, but the better made older boat will be ten years older and in need of it's gelcoat polished etc., but it will still be in good shape, the Bayliner, maybe not.
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Old 25-04-2014, 10:33   #22
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

I think I'm still in the "Newer is not necessarily better camp".
Although I agree you'd be hard pressed to find a 70's car that drives as well as a new one. I do believe many boats are built as cheaply as possible today. Not all things new are better.
The 1925 Craftsman style home I had was built so much better than most new houses they are not even comparable. It was a $200k house at the time but would have taken a million to build new... and the SVG Fir would not be available to do it.
But I digress... I just read an article about a brand new catamaran on delivery from New York to the Virgins. Owners aboard and professional crew also. Both spade rudders failed in poor conditions, but it wasnt really storm conditions at all. One rudder the blade was just spinning on the shaft, the other bent. Other issues developed and the boat was abandoned. A Westsail 32 would have made that trip with no issues.
What does this prove? nothing really, but one has to realize that New doesnt solve all problems. All the replaceable stuff like rigging , sails and appliances are less likely to fail maybe, but the contruction may not be up to the task.
When a newbie asks "can I go Bluewater in a Beneteau" the answer of course is "yes". But should you? A newbie can go rock climbing up the face of of a mountain and survive, but should he? Maybe he should go hiking instead? Some boats DO take care of you better than others.
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Old 25-04-2014, 10:36   #23
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

I always keep in mind that there are guys who have rowed or sailed across the Atlantic in a kayak, and the Titanic sank. Looks can be deceiving and the most important part of the equations is you, not the boat.
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Old 25-04-2014, 10:41   #24
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

Many of the new production boats are pretty cool actually, I like them. I think they are built better than entry level production boats built in the past however I don't believe they are built as well as the middle of the road cruisers from the past. The problem today is that there are very few middle of the road cruisers out there, its either the entry level high production builders or the top end builders but the middle ground is pretty skinny today. That's what makes these older middle of the road boats so attractive today.
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Old 25-04-2014, 10:46   #25
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

I've been a broker now for too many years to count and I can say with the utmost certainty that many of the new even the expensive boats are junk. Sure they have good designs and decent hull lay-ups and materials but in many cases thats where it ends. I could write a book about all the issues we have come across including liner delam one day after the warranty expires. I say to each their own but you won't find me leaving sight of land in any of these boats. I have yet to see any boat that rivals the construction detail of my 1985 cutter. I'm not rich so I had to go much smaller but I can assure you one thing...I'm the weakest link, not my boat. Are new boats going to breakup at sea??? I doubt it, the bigger issue is constant failure, leaking ports, bad wiring, uncomfortable passages, poorly installed inadequate systems... The bottom line is who cares, 99% of us will ever leave our local waters and the average sailor uses his boat 12 times a year so there is a very specific market for theses boats. Every boat has its propose, don't use a chainsaw to trim your finger nails.
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Old 25-04-2014, 10:47   #26
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I think your exactly right, I think the average working slob and I am one so don't take that as an offence, has less spendable income than they did in the 70's. I see a lot of evidence of that, the wealthy on the other hand are wealthier. So in order to stay in business boat manufacturers that sell to the working class have to be able to offer a boat for less money, and the only way to do that is to reduce costs.

I come from a decently experienced power boat background, there it was Bayliner, a less than perfectly made boat produced in mass with less expensive everything, but as Brunswick owned everything from the trailer to the motor, they could offer a less expensive, safe boat for way less than most and still make a profit, and they got a lot of people boating that maybe otherwise wouldn't be, so they served a purpose.
But to say that a new Bayliner is a better boat than some others because it's new, just isn't true. In ten years the Bayliner's wooden floor etc. may well be rotten out, but the better made older boat will be ten years older and in need of it's gelcoat polished etc., but it will still be in good shape, the Bayliner, maybe not.
Exactly. What I would love to do, is in say 30 years, see how many of these modern production boats built in the last 10 years are still around and what condition they're in compared to how many and what condition boats built in the 70s and 80s are in today. I know numbers wise the sheer volume of production boats means there will be more around, but percentage wise, I'm not so sure. I've got a feeling we're going to see very few boats (percentage wise) from this era still actively sailing by then.

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Old 25-04-2014, 11:01   #27
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

No matter the time period there is a difference between an average made for the masses and a blue water made for the few. Most things are stronger, thicker, more high rated and cost more. If you start running ratios you well see/not the difference. http://www.sailingcourse.com/keelboat/motion_comfort.htm Also a lot depends on how the boat been maintained and used. Even though the Eagle is a full displacement long range trawler, I still run most of the same ratios, which indicate blue water capable.

Now I ma not saying our 1978 trawler blue water capable is equal or better than a newer trawler but still is better than most boats made for the masses. If you go on eveough boats you will know what is a blue water boat asnd what is not sas they just feel more bigger/stable/heavy/secure.

Oh and I also agree the captain and crew make a big difference. The less experincer/knowlege the more more capable the boat should be.
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Old 25-04-2014, 11:10   #28
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

Another thought: "You cant maintain a Yugo into being a good car for a road trip". Well maintained or not it aint gonna be a good experience.
Replace the word Yugo with Buccanneer, Lancer...etc...
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Old 25-04-2014, 11:33   #29
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Spade rudders may be far more susceptible to damage than ones on skegs/partial skegs/mounted aft of the keel, but who cares about that in a cruising boat?
Properly engineered a spade rudder is less susceptible to damage than a skeg hung rudder. And yes, one should care about that...
If you really want to see what a good cruising boat should look like. look at boats that experienced cruisers design (or buy) for themselves. Boreal for example. Ovni. Allures...
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Old 25-04-2014, 11:38   #30
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Re: Can't wrap my mind around this "bluewater" thing!

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Properly engineered a spade rudder is less susceptible to damage than a skeg hung rudder. And yes, one should care about that...
If you really want to see what a good cruising boat should look like. look at boats that experienced cruisers design (or buy) for themselves. Boreal for example. Ovni. Allures...
With all due respect I'd love to see this defined
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