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Old 25-05-2014, 10:34   #271
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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"comparing the USS Constitutuion with a modern boat only demonstrates how little one knows of either type of design."

Really? And I was supposed to know that how considering your post started out talking about square riggers?

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Fair enough , if you made the quote in jest then I'm laughing

dave
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Old 25-05-2014, 10:48   #272
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Many of us with "appalling stability" ourselves have found to our dismay that jokes often don't play well on the 'net. It's that context thingy, I guess. Emoticons make a big difference.
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Old 25-05-2014, 11:17   #273
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Fair enough , if you made the quote in jest then I'm laughing

dave
Yes, it was in jest. I mean, did you seriously think I was comparing a 200+ year old 300+' square rigged warship to a modern Bene, Hylas or other FG boat? Lol. At most, the only "comparison" that could be made is that ships like CONSTITUTION or VICTORY are still around after 200 years while none of our boats are likely to make it to 100, let alone 200.

Also, yes, emoticons would have been helpful, but my mobile wont let me use them on the site.

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Old 25-05-2014, 19:02   #274
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Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by Kevin84 View Post
Yes, it was in jest. I mean, did you seriously think I was comparing a 200+ year old 300+' square rigged warship to a modern Bene, Hylas or other FG boat? Lol. At most, the only "comparison" that could be made is that ships like CONSTITUTION or VICTORY are still around after 200 years while none of our boats are likely to make it to 100, let alone 200.

Also, yes, emoticons would have been helpful, but my mobile wont let me use them on the site.

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There are grp boats on the go now approaching 60 years of age. I was on a Mobo recently built in 1968 in grp that looks as good as the day she came out of the mold

I've no doubt well see grp boats 100 or even 200 years old as well

Equally there were square riggers that didn't last 30 years , if you read your history.

Equally if any grp boat had the number of restorations that uss constitution had , I suspect that grp boat would be looking just fine.

I mean the uss constitution is a bit like my grandfathers pickaxe in my shed 70 years old , only 12 new handles and 5 new heads in all that time !!!
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Old 25-05-2014, 19:12   #275
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Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Precisely how? The question was not best boat to cross blue water... It was more of a puzzled mind as to how new materials and technology aren't just as good or better than boats built 30, 40, 50 years ago. Heck, even a hundred years ago. It just seems crazy to me that even a boat built at a price point in 2014 isn't just as capable as a wooden boat that discovered new lands hundreds of years ago. I know this post has taken on a life of its own but I want to keep it true to the original post which was NOT what is the best boat to take across an ocean. I don't have the knowledge now to take any boat across, so I am not looking for a magical guarantee on anything. It is just a weird concept to grasp for me and maybe a few other like minded sailors.

A friend of mine took a stock production boat to Antarctica and back. 1000s are circumnavigating the planet. Many hundreds do the arc in stock production boats

In the 60s that would have got you knighted.

We see these occasional failures preciously because these stock production boats ARE so capable. I mean every year there are chartered racer cruisers like cheeki sailed to Antigua and back.


100 years ago , long voyages in small boats was the stuff of heros and fools. Today your next door neighbour is probably doing it.


This accident is the folly of man not machine

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Old 25-05-2014, 21:18   #276
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
There are grp boats on the go now approaching 60 years of age. I was on a Mobo recently built in 1968 in grp that looks as good as the day she came out of the mold

I've no doubt well see grp boats 100 or even 200 years old as well

Equally there were square riggers that didn't last 30 years , if you read your history.

Equally if any grp boat had the number of restorations that uss constitution had , I suspect that grp boat would be looking just fine.

I mean the uss constitution is a bit like my grandfathers pickaxe in my shed 70 years old , only 12 new handles and 5 new heads in all that time !!!
Dave
Lol. True. I did just read an article that only about 10-15% of CONSTITUTION is original.

And you're right, a properly maintained FG boat will last nearly forever. But I somehow doubt the vast majority of boats now floating will make it that long as people's tastes change and eventually, even the "classics" will disappear. Either through neglect to the point where it no longer makes sense to refit/restore them (like a lot of the old Albergs today) or being lost.

One last point, while I do think it's a marvel that VICTORY and CONSTITUTION are still with us, they are very much the exception, not the rule. Nice that they are because of the history have, but it's only because of their history that they've been preserved. Which is why I don't think many FG boats will last as long. They just won't have the history to make them worth saving.

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Old 25-05-2014, 21:19   #277
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

> Also, yes, emoticons would have been helpful, but my mobile wont let me use them on the site.

You mean you can't type a colon followed by a closing parenthesis?

Like this: : ) but without the space in the middle
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Old 25-05-2014, 23:30   #278
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

;-))

lol

lmao

ha ha

jk

really...
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Old 26-05-2014, 04:55   #279
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Regarding wooden sailing ships. Many were built with soft wood that immediately started soaking with water as soon as those ships were launched. Unlike custom wooden yachts that used hardwoods and protective materials to preserve the wood. For example. There is a schooner here in Puget sound that was built in the 1920s that still has almost all her original planks.

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Old 28-05-2014, 01:57   #280
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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...any modern yacht of the same size is much more seaworthy than one of the boats of the discovery age...

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With all due respect--BS.

One needs only to remember the Beneteau that started the diminishing stability debate after killing one of her crew.
Sure, not a problem with respect or BS but you obviously don't know of what you are talking about. I suggest you to read the "História Tragico- Maritima" a description of the hundreds of reported sinking of ships of the discovery ages (only Portuguese ones). In any "armada" that normally went to India, Brazil, Japan and China, from the 4 or 5 boats normally one would not make it back and those guys were sailors and not even the best of them, Bartolomeu Dias, could survive a big storm in a 80ft Caravela out of Cape of Good Hope. I am sure a 80ft modern yacht, or even a modern production smaller boat like the Jeanneau 60fts would not have any serious problem on those conditions. Even much smaller boats would be more seaworthy.

Regarding Final Stability the ones of modern boats (Post RCD) are better than the one of most older boats. Even boats that had supposedly good stability like "Sabre" Yachts or Vaillant have no better AVS and final stability than most modern big production boats are are even worse than many.

Torpedo and bulbed keels as well as increased draft can have very positive and surprising consequences in stability. When we compare those stability curves with the ones of boats without bulbed keels, long keels and lower draft the differences are obvious in what regards the needed weight of ballast to have the same effect on stability.
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Old 28-05-2014, 02:20   #281
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Lol. True. I did just read an article that only about 10-15% of CONSTITUTION is original.

And you're right, a properly maintained FG boat will last nearly forever. But I somehow doubt the vast majority of boats now floating will make it that long as people's tastes change and eventually, even the "classics" will disappear. Either through neglect to the point where it no longer makes sense to refit/restore them (like a lot of the old Albergs today) or being lost.

One last point, while I do think it's a marvel that VICTORY and CONSTITUTION are still with us, they are very much the exception, not the rule. Nice that they are because of the history have, but it's only because of their history that they've been preserved. Which is why I don't think many FG boats will last as long. They just won't have the history to make them worth saving.
A wooden boat useful live was of about 30 years. After that it was cheaper to build a new one than to keep maintaining the old one. Sure if there is a historic interest you can maintain it forever, you just have to keep changing parts till the point that 100 years later almost nothing remains from the old boat.

You can do that with a fiberglass/Steel boat or car or with anything else with historic value and preserve things for a long time but not on a basis of cost efficiency, only for historic value.

Boats are not different from cars, you can keep running a car for 100 years changing pieces but you have a car that is less efficient by design in many aspects and the cost of that at a given time is bigger than what cost to buy a newer used but modern car, so you ditch them away 20 years later, in most of the cases

The same with boats. It will not be the longevity of a hull that will determine the end of a useful live of a boat but cost of maintenance of an older boat and for maintenance I mean keeping the boat in shape regarding the seaworthiness that once had, not having what was once a bluewater boat barely suitable now for coastal conditions. They will last more than 20 years but I believe that most of the boats with more than 30 year will start to be put out of service being substituted by newer used boats for maintenance cost reasons.
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Old 28-05-2014, 03:07   #282
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Po--you must have missed all the drama regarding the Beneteau Oceanis with stability problems which resulted in loss of life.

...Findings...
"The Oceanis 390...is not
designed for crossing oceans in bad weather."
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Old 29-05-2014, 01:46   #283
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Po--you must have missed all the drama regarding the Beneteau Oceanis with stability problems which resulted in loss of life.

...Findings...
"The Oceanis 390...is not
designed for crossing oceans in bad weather."
Of course. Do you know any 39ft sailboat designed to cross oceans in bad weather?
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Old 29-05-2014, 06:08   #284
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Actually there are many offshore 39 footers that would be a much better choice then the Benni 39 if you had to duke it out in bad weather.
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Old 29-05-2014, 06:10   #285
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Hey Dave,
Where are you getting your numbers from??? Thousands of Benni's or the like circumnavigating...I don't think so...hundreds maybe over time. I counted the Benni's in 2013 ARC and there were around 18 I think, a little short of hundreds. I know you are trying to make a point but come on!!
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