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Old 08-05-2014, 20:24   #241
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pirate Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

I think we all buy the best boat we can afford. Many of us would rather have an older boat with proven systems like bronze seacocks but just as many prefer the more modern, relatively less expensive boats and the compromises that implies, including more frequent servicing/replacement of shorter-lived systems.

So what? I suspect these repetitive arguments have changed very few minds. We now know beyond doubt that the Hunter/Bene/Similar boats will go to sea successfully in the right skipper's hands, and in any case, very few boats go to sea at all.

I think the "Bluewater" questions come from very inexperienced boaters looking for a magic bullet to cover their lack of knowledge. The rest of us already know of many genuinely epic voyages made in small boats.

Spring has sprung. Let's hit the water!
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Old 08-05-2014, 20:55   #242
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Before passing on, let's pass along some of what we learned to the less experienced boaters. Might save them years of wasted earnings or effort, if it keeps them from making critical errors in judgement.

"Bluewater" is a clear distinction in concept which excludes most small production boats because they lack the capacity, strength, seaworthiness or essential sailing or life supporting systems required for days at sea in changing weather and sea conditions.

To fully appreciate just how big a difference lies between bluewater and all the rest, one must have actively participated in the successful creation of just such a bluewater boat.

It isn't just more fuel and water tankage.
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Old 08-05-2014, 21:12   #243
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Jeez, I'm not on an oldy, but even I know Jethro Tull is the name of a band, not a person. Their lead singer, and the rockinest flautist of all time, is Ian Anderson.
SIR Ian Anderson dude!

me typo/
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Old 08-05-2014, 21:20   #244
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
I think we all buy the best boat we can afford.
At the end of the day it comes down to exactly this!

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Old 08-05-2014, 21:25   #245
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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At the end of the day it comes down to exactly this!


Well not me...yet
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Old 08-05-2014, 22:36   #246
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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I think we all buy the best boat we can afford.
Spring has sprung. Let's hit the water!
Huh! I couldn't really afford this old barge, now I can't afford not to afford it...

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Old 08-05-2014, 22:41   #247
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Jeez, I'm not on an oldy, but even I know Jethro Tull is the name of a band, not a person. Their lead singer, and the rockinest flautist of all time, is Ian Anderson.
Blue crab beat me to it... Jethro Tull _was_ a real person. Just not Ian Anderson.


Heard an interview with Ian once. He was learning to play guitar, got pretty good and all. Went out to become a rock-n-roll star. Quickly determined that he was never going to be the best guitar player in the world. Thought about it a bit, and figured out that he could easily be the best damn rock-n-roll flautist though. (Since he'd be the only one)

Damn fine musician, funny as all get out, and good at playing the odds to become best.

Oh, and I'm never taking my boat across oceans. (Just to be a bit on topic)
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Old 08-05-2014, 22:49   #248
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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At the end of the day it comes down to exactly this! :
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Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
I think we all buy the best boat we can afford. ...
I personally think that's an oversimplification, skipmac

If I have a given amount of money to spend, I can choose a boat with twenty-four brass thruhulls and pressure hot water, with all the 'creature comforts' implied (I might want chrome-on-plastic fresh-water shower heads, for instance; one in each head and one on the swim platform)

or I can spend the same money on a boat with the basic essentials, of higher strength and durability, a $15 solar shower, and a few buckets.

It doesn't so much come down to budget, it seems to me, but to objective purpose, and subjective priorities.
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:01   #249
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
...
"Bluewater" is a clear distinction in concept which excludes most small production boats because they lack the capacity, strength, seaworthiness or essential sailing or life supporting systems required for days at sea in changing weather and sea conditions.
...
Yes, I agree with you but then there are very few that what to go bluewater in boats smaller then 33ft (lesser comfort) even if some do that on smaller modern production boats. Most production boats, if equipped correctly with the options the shipyard or dealer provide for adapting the boat to that purpose would not have any problem doing that, if not in high latitudes and on the right season.

If there are very few that really want to go bluewater, the ones that want to do that on the wrong season or in high latitudes are just a tiny percentage, even considering the ones that cross oceans. Even so I remember a Corsair 31 doing not long ago a circumnavigation by the Northwest and Northeast passage, sailed by two North Europeans.
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:31   #250
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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I think we all buy the best boat we can afford. Many of us would rather have an older boat with proven systems like bronze seacocks but just as many prefer the more modern, relatively less expensive boats and the compromises that implies, including more frequent servicing/replacement of shorter-lived systems.
That story about modern seacoks liability, the brass or composite ones, is vastly exaggerated.

Sure, it is very important if one buys an old boat almost for nothing where the cost of substitution of seacocks, as many other things, will be almost as expensive as the price of the boat.

Modern seacocks are warrantied by law to last 5 years, that means that if a boat sinks due to that, the builder is liable that does not mean that they only last 5 years.

On my previous boat, bought new I never had a problem with seacocks. I sold it with 8 years and the new owner (I remained a friend) did not have change them and 12 years later the boat still has no problems.

My actual boat is 7 years old. I asked the seacocks to be verified and tested and again, no problem.

Having a boat is expensive. Mast and rig manufacturers say that a rig should be substituted after 7 years, most don't do that, they limit themselves to make a good visual inspection and there are many rigs with 15 years without a problem.

Old Bronze seacocks were better and last more? No doubt. Are the new one justifying the big fuss about them? I don't think so, a substitution each 10 years or so and a more tight control is not something that worries me.
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:46   #251
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Polux,
I agree with you about the seacocks being brass is not a "huge" thing but what it speaks to is the culture of building down to a price.
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Old 09-05-2014, 05:02   #252
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I personally think that's an oversimplification, skipmac

If I have a given amount of money to spend, I can choose a boat with twenty-four brass thruhulls and pressure hot water, with all the 'creature comforts' implied (I might want chrome-on-plastic fresh-water shower heads, for instance; one in each head and one on the swim platform)

or I can spend the same money on a boat with the basic essentials, of higher strength and durability, a $15 solar shower, and a few buckets.

It doesn't so much come down to budget, it seems to me, but to objective purpose, and subjective priorities.
I don't disagree with your statement at all and feel it is line with my thought process. You just have to take the premise that is stated simply and analyze and expand on each point.

First what is best? We all know that there is not one single best boat. Best for one person might be "a boat with twenty-four brass thruhulls and pressure hot water, with all the 'creature comforts" and for another "a boat with the basic essentials, of higher strength and durability, a $15 solar shower, and a few buckets." So saying best boat to me implies carefully analyzing ones boating plans and choosing a boat the is most appropriate for the intended uses.

Afford can be similarly expanded and even more complex including not just how much money one has in the bank but decisions on how much should be kept in reserve for cruising, maintenance, personal expenses, health care, etc. Of course how much one can afford to spend may be determined by how much one can spend before the significant other threatens divorce.
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Old 09-05-2014, 05:39   #253
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Polux,
I agree with you about the seacocks being brass is not a "huge" thing but what it speaks to is the culture of building down to a price.
I agree, but everybody builds down to a price...even if different prices
On most mass production boats today the essential is solid, in some cases as solid as in boats that cost almost twice. Most of the difference in price goes to a luxury interior, finish a higher grade deck equipment that is certainly a convenience but has not directly to do with seaworthiness. A big difference goes to scale of the shipyard (and production numbers) that allows the use of robotics and much better prices in what regards buying equipment needed to built the boat.

A boat built with any concern regarding price would be impossibly expensive. You can see that on top racing boats, even if they are not built for cruising, on this case no money is saved because top performance is what matters. Most would not understand how an almost naked boat can cost several times more than a nice cruiser of the same type with a good interior
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Old 09-05-2014, 08:26   #254
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

I agree with you Polux about not having a budget as of course everthing built is done to a budget. The point I was trying to make was that Bavaria started the real number crunching and producing boats that were much cheaper all the way around. The others had to follow or be run over so of course they did. This is not just my opinion but is the opinion of every prof boat maintenance person I have met. They all say the same thing...cheaper and not built as well as years past. I hear the same music from surveyors in my travels. Having said that I do agree that they seem to be built well enough to do the job they were intended for so I guess the accountants are right but how well they will age is yet to be seen, my gut is maybe not so well.
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Old 16-05-2014, 16:20   #255
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I have been looking for my second boat for a while now. Am I the only one that struggles with the thought that humans have been crossing the 7 seas for thousands of years on anything they could find, but todays technology that costs a small fortune is said to not be capable of the task? I understand the price point building practices, built for chartering, and all the other arguments. I just can't wrap my mind around the thought that todays materials, research, and corrections from past mistakes, doesn't make for a vessel way more capable than previous vessels. Are we snubbing tomorrow's cherished "bluewater" prize today because it wasn't built in the 70's? Did sailors in the 70's trash talk new boats and designs only to find out today they were completely capable of the task? Will we be out of inventory in twenty years when all the 60,70, and early 80's boats are gone?

I like classic but am not a fan of constantly performing unnecessary maint. I also don't want to upgrade an older boat to make it new (been there with last boat 1984 Hunter). I would like a 32-36 foot newer model. Realize it wont have as many hand holds at sea, not the best for cooking while underway, etc, etc, etc. I just really struggle thinking a newer model boat (and yes I am talking production boat I can't afford modern boat built for crossings) just hitting the first "bluewater" wave and crumbling to Davey Jones Locker. But then again, I have never been in the middle of the ocean.

I know anyone can upgrade rigging and reinforce this and that, and it would most likely be necessary on any boat. I just can't help but think todays boats are more than capable and in twenty years I wonder which ones will be cherished "bluewater" cruisers
Here's a great resource if it hasn't yet been referenced somewhere within this tome of a thread Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

John Neal, Mahina Expeditions, has a few miles under his keel and does a great job of overviewing many of the issues at play selecting an offshore boat. There is no 'black and white' answer....every boat is a compromise...
you're the Captain, see what resonates with you ... Good Luck ... to you, to me and to everyone lucky enough to be shopping for 'my next boat'.
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